View Full Version : How light do you fly your Ion?
WillJames
03-04-2006, 11:00 AM
Here are my 2 stage with NEU 1521 and Pro Lite 8000's/UBEC at 11.70 pounds and my single stage with 32-3 and new Duralite Evo 20 packs at 10.05 pounds. Look for some video very soon.
What are you flying, and how does it weigh in?
misskimo
03-04-2006, 11:32 AM
14s4p 5300 , actro 32-4 schulze 40-160 Ion weighs 11lbs , 3oz , 10s Ion actro 32-3 , schulze 40-160 ,8000s , 10lbs 9oz , or 11s4p 5300 , 10lbs 6 oz.
Ion converted to a 50 , havent weighed it yet , but Im thinking to change it back to a 700mm heli , its the VStabi , , 24-4 , schulze 40-160 , 10s4p 5300s , or 10s3p 6000 prolites . now that ones ganna rock ,
Gary O
03-10-2006, 10:00 AM
Will,
I just got mine yesterday. Will probably get it built in the next few days. Any word on what batteries I should get. I need to get with Chris, the canopy is crushed in the box. Not sure what happened but all the rest of the parts look okay.
misskimo
03-10-2006, 11:31 AM
Dang , canopys crushed , they wi handle it great , batteries are up to you , I like TP 8000 , and have a 2 10s2ps 4200s coming , run in parallel for 8400s for long 3D heavy flights , and I also like the 5300s , they are the SSHEEEZZZZ, but look out , soon there will be some tp 1P 3700s , 4400, and some 4900 for the Ions , 1p , sure makes life easier if they can withstand the abuse of high amps , 20C , maybe after this stage they can retool up for a new cell like the 123 that are coming out from dewalt, 10 min charge , he he grunt grunt , Im also ganna abuse some Milwaulke emolis out , got my stash made up
Laurens
03-10-2006, 04:38 PM
2* 14s?
Just builded me a cheap 1257 gr. 12S2P 4000ma 20C Tronic battery, flew it today in my Ion-X with the NEU 1521 1,5Y motor.
Gooood power :twisted:
MinAirChris
03-10-2006, 10:00 PM
That's pretty cool Paul...do tell more...
Chris
Okay!
On the first flight the ambient temperature was 6 deg C below the freezing point, there was a lot of power and the Ion-X did feel very light.....damn, I need to buy a second Ion-X soon ;-).
After 7 minutes of flight the battery was still cold.
I am using a prototype of a new controller, and cant tell more about that now except that I am not sure that it was set up to give max. power together with the 2pole NEU motor.
So when I am sure the controller are giving max. power, the ambient temperature have raised a little, I have mounted my datalogger and got some more cycles, I can tell more about these cells, but my first impression is that they perform very well.
The battery it self is very cheap. I paid 8,6 USD each 20C cell, 8.6 x 24 cells = 206,4 USD plus shipping, fittings and local taxes. No other cell brand can beat that price :-).
For charging it I use a 2KW inverter fitted Kipor generator, a 120A SPS-9620 power supply, and Orbit Pro / Power Cube chargers.
The Power Cube charger is the coolest charger I have seen yet, it can be set to charge with 0,1V intervals up to 49 volt, which is the limit of this 300W charger. I will get one more of these chargers soon.
So when I charge my lipo batteries, I always set the power cube to around 4,1V end charge each cell. In that way I save my battery's for the stress and risk of overcharging that other chargers on the market give our batteries by charging all the way to 4,2V each cell.
misskimo
03-11-2006, 04:35 AM
hey , cool , also just would like to say , when charging in series , make sure each pack is matched , I swelled a few packs when they first came out with thunderpower , after a flight , one pack would be a lower voltage than the other
Tony
This battery is build as one big 12S battery just with a little longer 4mm wire between cell 6 and 7. All cells were hand picked to have the same initial charge before I soldered them, and I made a 0,3A and 4,2V/cell end charge to let the balancing circuits make the final balancing work with super fine balancing all cells before the first flight.
I look as this battery as a 12S battery, not 2 x 6S as the only difference from one big 12S battery is the longer wire between cell 6 and 7. Cant imaging me this short 4mm wire will have anything to say, but will as always keep an eye on the red lights on the balancing circuits, especially in the beginning.
If I, against my expectations will have any problems charging it as a 12S battery, which it is in my view, I will make a post. But anyway, thanks for the warning.
Had another flight this morning with a temperature of 7 deg C below the freezing point, think this winter have been a little too long, and ChrisS, Don't tell me what kind of temperatures you are flying around in, I don't want to know it :wink:
The power was constant and strong from the start to the end, but still think I need to change something in the controller as I use too little amps, and the battery was very cold after 7 minutes.
Need some longer tail blades, as my 95mm SAB blades cant handle the power, maybe some 110-120mm blades will work great, what kind of tail blades are you guys flying with on the Ion-X?
Maybe I will try a complete set of V-Blades, just think they are a little expensive, where is the best place to get these? guess a set of 690mm blades will be fine.
I think this kind of light high voltage setupīs has a future, as it gives a cheap, light and powerful battery. The Ion-X simply just fly better with these light weight batteries.
When I get a 15S controller, I will try a 14S2P setup with these cells in combination with the NEU 1521 2.0Y motor.
MinAirChris
03-11-2006, 09:19 AM
"and ChrisS, Don't tell me what kind of temperatures you are flying around in, I don't want to know it "
Neener neener neener :wink: I did my time in the great white north, I feel your pain.
Thanks Paul this is VERY good info
I have not heard of the Power Cube from Orbit, perhaps I'll get to see one at Toledo next month. I am trying the new Thunder Power 1010 which is proving itself to be a really neat product. It will actually, safely, charge two 5S packs in series when used with the new balancer from TP.
Can you give us a contact where these cells can be purchased? I used to build my own roundcell packs before the days of lithium and would like to try it again with the new stuff....especially at those kinds of prices, $200 for a 44 ounce 177 watt*hour battery is a smokin deal. Thats $1.13/watt*hour where the typical street price for LiPo packs was around $2.70/watt*hour a year ago...good stuff.
Chris
Good that somebody feel a little with my frozen fingers :D
The powercube is from lomcovac, and are not for beginners, but I just love it because one finally have full control over the charge process.
http://www.lomcovak.cz/charger/powercube1.html
I will send you a mail ChrisS.
Got confirmed that I will have reduced power with this prototype in combination with the NEU motors, damn, cant wait with having all the power released from these batteries. So good power with a limiting controller............Might need to buy the expensive Schulze 15S controller if I will have a 12S controller now that works.
Will be back with more info when I get a new speed controller.
- Paul
misskimo
03-11-2006, 11:16 AM
schulze is a 14s esc , you will gain about 7% more grunt when it gets warmer , also might get more grunt when you reach the 10 charge. also , the nue is a 4 pole motor
misskimo
03-11-2006, 11:25 AM
huh! you are alot warmer than me , its 20 below 0 F here , ran up my Ion Vbar at lunch in the gym here at work. seams to have it ready , now just need some spring weather , and the trip down south , coming soon , will carry 2 Ions and my logo 10 3D , ganna take my motor out of my Ion 14s , and just swap them when I want some GRUNT , Chris , what do you think? bought Karls ion 50 , ganna convert back to a 90 , sell the bare bone 14s Ion to Karl , talking about some horse trading huh?
Tony
ok 14S and 4 pole, still my controller is not optimized for low pole count motors in a heli. Think I will try to find this Schulze to the least insane price I can, want to be ready when our short summer comes again.
tppacks write 13S for the schulze, and schulze writes 40 nicd which is also closer to 13S than 14S, so what is the truth.....think you have tested it to 14S in your heliīs, but will that shorten the life of the controller, or how does it work?
Then I will feel with you misskimo, pretty nice and warm weather in Denmark compared to that. But it is too windy in Denmark ;-).
Where do you get the 7% from....took my heli direct from a warm car before flight, still the ambient temperature cooled the batteries down, and know lipo cells performs better at higher temperatures.
Also, why more grunt after 10 cycles? is that a statement from a battery scientist, or just something people think or feel.
Right now the main limiting factor is not the temperature, but the controller.
Does the governor function works good on the schulze, or is it better not to use the governor function?
Lets hope the global heating can give us some milder winters in the future :-)
misskimo
03-11-2006, 07:39 PM
hey , 7% ( just a guess , ) but you can tell it when you stay in the collective .
Schulze told me , as long as the controller arms , then its safe, too much voltage it will not arm. they rate theres at 1.5 volts per cell , 40 * 1.5 = 60 volts. kontronics and other escs rate theres at 1.2 volts per cell , thats why most fellows can run 11 s with the 32 cell schulze too.
batteries will discharge better after around 10 charges , I would kinda take it easy on the packs , ( kinda)
gov might work good with a 4 pole , but I cant get mine govs to work in my 3 40-160s , on max voltage , the gov gets messed up trying them on 14s , schulze said the 14th version will fix that problem , so make sure you get the latest version esc, it will have a date and a V14 on the controller .
OK , what esc do you HAVE , come own , let it out . whats the specks?
ChrisS
03-11-2006, 08:37 PM
Well, lets see, it's made for a high pole count motor and up to 12S...hmmmm....
hey , 7% ( just a guess , ) but you can tell it when you stay in the collective .
Schulze told me , as long as the controller arms , then its safe, too much voltage it will not arm. they rate theres at 1.5 volts per cell , 40 * 1.5 = 60 volts. kontronics and other escs rate theres at 1.2 volts per cell , thats why most fellows can run 11 s with the 32 cell schulze too.
batteries will discharge better after around 10 charges , I would kinda take it easy on the packs , ( kinda)
gov might work good with a 4 pole , but I cant get mine govs to work in my 3 40-160s , on max voltage , the gov gets messed up trying them on 14s , schulze said the 14th version will fix that problem , so make sure you get the latest version esc, it will have a date and a V14 on the controller .
OK , what esc do you HAVE , come own , let it out . whats the specks?
Thanks a lot for the info misskimo, I will ensure it will be V14, guess you just saved me from having the second to best controller. :D
You still haven't told me where you have this better discharge after 10 cycles from :wink: , just never noticed this my self, but if some kind of battery expert have made this statement, I must believe it.
Sorry, promised not to tell before it is released officially, so cant tell more. But don't worry, think it soon will be on the market, and anyway you will not use it in your heliīs with NEU motors :?
misskimo
03-12-2006, 05:02 AM
flew the Ion 50 Vbar , way smooth , and cool as hell , ran it in the gym 50% throttle , Chris , thats alittle different than at IRCHA when Karl was flying it with the flybar
Ok, guess it is not a secret anymore.
http://www.minicopter.de/en/news.html
http://www.minicopter.de/img/1622_actronic120.JPG
misskimo
03-12-2006, 01:21 PM
hey , he he , cool , does it have the gov built in it ? man I sure loved the gov in my joker back a few years ago , but had problems with the esc on lipos , run and ramp up great on 32 subc , but 10s lipos , had to hand spin it all the time , unless the voltage was about 10% gone off its top , still got it laying around , cant even give it away
Mine is a prototype, still need to have confirmed if the final version will be any different.
It has governor and a very soft softstart.
Had two flights with my Joker today where I have a 12S3P Tronic battery
http://www.helifreak.com/about11179.html ,
Good power, got a new CSM SL720 gyro, very promising, but forgot the computer cable to my laptop, so couldn't program the gyro today. Need to have the Gyro setup 100% before I can judge how good the governor function is.
Still waiting for some answers from http://www.actro.de , but so far I only think one will have softstart if the governor mode is activated, which means that the governor can not be disabled for heli use......lets hope this governor really is as good as they say, or there might be a problem here.
Also there is some max rpm limits for different modes, don't quite understand why, but guess it has something to do with that is made for Actro motors and not 4 poled NEU motors.
In general I don't like too many build in limits even that there might be good intension behind these, I like to have control over the controller, I like raw power, therefore I am more to NEU motors and Schulze controllers with no governor, alternative a perfect governor which is not always the case.
But need more tests and answers before I have a good picture of this controller.
misskimo
03-12-2006, 08:07 PM
hey , on the older actronics you can disable the rpm limit for the motors by unplugging the little 2 pin connector ( small one ,) I also think the actros run best at about 80% gov mode , and there 70 32 controller is for actro 8 pole motors only , so I never tried it on the 4 pole or a 6 pole.
Tony
Dont think one can compare earlier versions with this new controller, dont have the jumper you talk about on this controller.
Send a lot of questions to Frank, got the first answers, waiting for more :-).
You can not disable the governor without disabling the slowstart too.
Frank wrote this to me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
We think that there is no practical benefit using normal control mode on a heli. Speed control is much faster and more exact than pitch based speed control.
When using speed control on combustion-motors is of great benefit making pitch-based control in addition to speed control because those engines have torque based control which is not stiff concerning speed. Meaning if you have a small change in torque (equal to output power) you will get a big change in speed manly depending on the characteristic of the load itself. This leads to very high controller activity but with the nonlinearty involved (motor acn not act as a brake!) it will never be very good. Pitch-based control in addaition to speed control is more or less a must use.
The actronic forces a stiff speed characteristic with our without speed control so changes in torque will not result in big speed changes. So the speed compensator itself only has to compensate for small changes witch are independent of the load.
-----------------------------------------------------
Was out again today, with a better tail ;-), and I agree, the governor is actual quite good, still I would like to have the option for manual mode.
In the Joker 2 I use around 4000ma in 10 minutes with mixed hard and soft 3D. Temperature was as follow.
Before:
Controller 5 deg. C
Motor 7 deg. C
Battery 7 deg. C
After 10 minutes non stop flight:
Controller 22 deg. C
Motor 33 deg. C
Battery 33 deg. C
Pretty cold, but cold ambient temperatures aswell, just around the freezing point.
Hope to be back with some more answers soon, when I get them from Frank.
BobbySmith
03-13-2006, 11:05 PM
PDC thats good stuff keep us informed
Bobby