USB cable diagram [Archive]

dizzy

11-04-2008, 10:45 PM

BC6-10 Rocks! I got mine! yeah!

Sad I can't find a USB cable! I'm a programmer so it would be nice if Bantam posted the USB cable diagram and the protocol it speaks. If they did the open source folks like me just might make this a really cool product.

It looks like they are having trouble getting the software out though and only Lego to my knowledge (Mindstorms RCX and the hacker friendly NXT) has gone as far as to support the OSS comunity without pause (forget the pc guys, please). Bantam aint no Lego!

Maybe they will open their product and not worry about having to waste all that cash making the next great software advance in charger, monitoring and diagnostic tech!

I for one log flight times, part replacement and such and it would be nice to start monitoring the batteries and their charging cycles. Even cooler would to write a product that would colate this info online from everyone to better judge which batteries are truly the best! I think the manufacturers would put me out of business by leaning on Bantam, right?

If Bantam goes OSS >> :noteworthy

dizzy

11-05-2008, 02:41 AM

I was waiting for someone to select option three...

Software is actually written in a "human readable" language. It is then "compiled" into what the computer speaks. That human readable version is very hard to reverse engineer from what the computer speaks. AND, if you do reverse engineer it, lawyers are knocking on your door asking for millions you do not have...

Thus, if I allow everyone to see the human readable version of my program they can more easily see mistakes in what I wrote. They post back the corrections (or even enhancements because I don't know everything) and suddenly the entire community benefits from more eyes on the subject (aka, you are here reading this forum for the very same reason open source is so powerful! you are learning from other people's take on your's or other's original ideas).

Bantam's e-charger BC6-10 is very advanced. If they open it up (USB cable diagrams and protocols), people like me will experiment with it and possibly improve their product from a software stand point and give back to the community. You, the purchaser of their hardware will suddenly have various programs available for free to analyze your LIPOs and diagnose problems or improve performance.

Sky is the limit when you have more eyes on the subject! That is why you are here reading this! Open source allows everyone to contribute (like a forum) to a software package to benefit the community.

If this is still over your head, don't worry! JUST CALL IT FREE SOFTWARE... for now ;)

brunobl

11-05-2008, 06:03 AM

I'm a programmer so it would be nice if Bantam posted the USB cable diagram and the protocol it speaks.

USB cable diagram? Isn't USB supposed to be a universal cable?
Did Bantam morph the USB's pinout into a proprietary cable?

saltyzoo

11-05-2008, 06:54 AM

I vote for the missing "It would be nice if they did it, but it's their choice" option.

Frankly, taking the time to document the interface for the public would cost them money and, if a usable open source product did eventually come out, they would lose sales on their own software. Then you have the support and liability aspects that they would have to deal with. This forum would be flooded with hundreds of questions about the open source software that they have no responsibility for. They'd get calls from people about it, etc, etc. And last, they have competitors. Handing over the interface design for their product might not be such a great idea from a "staying competitive" and "staying in business" point of view.

They spent the money to design and manufacture the hardware and more importantly the software, so it's their choice.

All that said, I'd love it if they did it, and it would give them some advantages as well as the downsides I mention above. I certainly would be all over it for my website. ;)

saltyzoo

11-05-2008, 06:55 AM

USB cable diagram? Isn't USB supposed to be a universal cable?
Did Bantam morph the USB's pinout into a proprietary cable?
The cable could be reverse engineered pretty easily. It's the software interface that is the big questionmark.

brunobl

11-05-2008, 09:44 AM

The cable could be reverse engineered pretty easily. It's the software interface that is the big questionmark.

My point was that the cable does not need any reverse engineering whatsoever. USB signal & power paths are well documented just about everywhere.

Of course the software protocol used to communicate with the hardware may well be proprietary, I'd not be surprised if it is. Even then, Bantam would benefit from making the protocol publicly available IMO.

GPS maker Garmin, for example, used two different sets of protocols, a simple ASCII output and its own, rather more involved, "Garmin Protocol" (both may go through either serial or USB ports). The text output conforms to an old, widely-used protocol (NMEA, for steering boat autopilots & such) but their newer proprietary "Garmin Protocol" is not hidden or protected. In fact the company publishes an SDK (software development kit) for those who wish to communicate with their devices through their proprietary protocol.

It would be cool if Bantam did it too.

saltyzoo

11-05-2008, 09:49 AM

My point was that the cable does not need any reverse engineering whatsoever. USB signal & power paths are well documented just about everywhere.

Of course the software protocol used to communicate with the hardware may well be proprietary, I'd not be surprised if it is. Even then, Bantam would benefit from making the protocol publicly available IMO.

GPS maker Garmin, for example, used two different sets of protocols, a simple ASCII output and its own, rather more involved, "Garmin Protocol" (both may go through either serial or USB ports). The text output conforms to an old, widely-used protocol (NMEA, for steering boat autopilots & such) but their newer proprietary "Garmin Protocol" is not hidden or protected. In fact the company publishes an SDK (software development kit) for those who wish to communicate with their devices through their proprietary protocol.

It would be cool if Bantam did it too.
As I said before, "it would be cool", but comparing garmin to Bantam is not accurate for a few reasons. One is the size and age of the company and the market it caters too. I guarantee you that for the first 15 to 20 years of making GPS that garmin did NOT provide this type of data.

As for the cable, one end is a standard (USB) but the other end is proprietary. It's the "other end" that you'd have to "figure out". Not difficult to do, but it has to be done.

RC Accessory

11-05-2008, 01:05 PM

The cable and USB port (dongle on some units) is not proprietary at all. I believe that the Logview software from Germany will work on the Bantam chargers, although I have never tried it. The cable is micro USB on one end and full size USB on the other.

saltyzoo

11-05-2008, 01:09 PM

brunobl

11-05-2008, 02:35 PM

As I said before, "it would be cool", but comparing garmin to Bantam is not accurate for a few reasons. One is the size and age of the company and the market it caters too. I guarantee you that for the first 15 to 20 years of making GPS that garmin did NOT provide this type of data.

As for the cable, one end is a standard (USB) but the other end is proprietary. It's the "other end" that you'd have to "figure out". Not difficult to do, but it has to be done.

I mentioned Garmin to offer a real-world example of a company that today capitalizes on open-architecture design of its communications protocol, regardless of when they finally did turn the protocol public, along their 19 years of existence. I recall many web pages describing that protocol circa 1996-1997, but those might have been based on hacked information. I did a lot of programming for GPS serial interface in those days, but for NMEA only, not this proprietary protocol.

Now I see where the cable confusion came from. Everything theses days seems to have a mini/sub/micro version! :)

saltyzoo

11-05-2008, 02:54 PM

There is still the size of the market to consider. Garmin sold a whole lot more GPS's even back in those days than Bantam sells chargers. With more market comes more $$$ to spend on "side" stuff like that.

The more I think of it though the more interested I am in it having already put the logging infrastructure in place, I just need to connect the two together. ;)

brunobl

11-05-2008, 04:19 PM

There is still the size of the market to consider. Garmin sold a whole lot more GPS's even back in those days than Bantam sells chargers. With more market comes more $$$ to spend on "side" stuff like that.
Oh yes, specially considering their active presence in the aviation segment, and the very serious $$$ involved there.

The more I think of it though the more interested I am in it having already put the logging infrastructure in place, I just need to connect the two together.

The kind of work you are doing is good for everyone:
- Developers/hobbyists like you could do cool stuff, and may get to earn $$ in the process;
- The manufacturer could see his product suddenly become a "must-have" platform;
- New, interesting applications for the rest of the hobby crowd, with the added benefit of an increased collective knowledge base for the product.

Congrats for digging into it.

saltyzoo

11-05-2008, 04:23 PM

Oh yes, specially considering their active presence in the aviation segment, and the very serious $$$ involved there.

The kind of work you are doing is good for everyone:
- Developers/hobbyists like you could do cool stuff, and may get to earn $$ in the process;
- The manufacturer could see his product suddenly become a "must-have" platform;
- New, interesting applications for the rest of the hobby crowd, with the added benefit of an increased collective knowledge base for the product.

Congrats for digging into it.
It's not me driving this. I'm not the OP. ;) I'm just liking the possibilities his idea brings up.

saltyzoo

11-05-2008, 06:52 PM

Ok, I'm not crazy. I just looked at my BC6 and it has no mini USB port. It has a non-standard 3 prong jack labeled "temp probe / USB".

RC Accessory

11-05-2008, 09:32 PM

Ok, I'm not crazy. I just looked at my BC6 and it has no mini USB port. It has a non-standard 3 prong jack labeled "temp probe / USB".

The USB is an external dongle that is included with the EAC200 Software kit.

brunobl

11-06-2008, 07:19 AM

It's not me driving this. I'm not the OP.
I'm just liking the possibilities his idea brings up.

Oooppss, lost track of that along the way, sorry.

Ok, I'm not crazy. I just looked at my BC6 and it has no mini USB port.
It has a non-standard 3 prong jack labeled "temp probe / USB".

So this answers my original question in my first reply to dizzy. A 3-prong jack cannot be a USB connector, as this interface needs 4 contacts (VCC, D-, D+, GND). Maybe the manufacturer plans on plugging something there, and go with a USB connection from there, but the plug itself is not USB.

Alternatively, maybe the 3-prong plug contains only the D-, D+ and GND paths, omitting the Vcc connection. This would make sense since the charger is of course not intended to be powered from the host computer USB port.

The above is of course speculation, and while it is irrelevant whether or not it is correct, it goes to show that your original statement (some reverse-engineering is required on the cable) was quite right. :)

dizzy

11-09-2008, 08:39 AM

Ok, I'm not crazy. I just looked at my BC6 and it has no mini USB port. It has a non-standard 3 prong jack labeled "temp probe / USB".

Ah, yes. Someone has finally looked at the BC6-10! The cable IS NOT a standard USB. Since the manual and the web site mention a "driver" on the CD it may just be TTL serial port (which has three wires) to USB.

If it is TTL, break out your BasicStamps or Atom boards and use it's microcontroller as the adapter to USB ;-)

(Proceed at your own risk because we are shooting from the hip on this!)

RC Accessory

11-09-2008, 08:59 AM

dizzy

11-09-2008, 09:12 AM

Almost certain what is marked as being USB is really a TTL serial. Voltages match and the the wires are in the proper order. They will probably sell a fat cable with a Paralax BasicStamp in it to convert the data into a USB stream of some sort. In fact, I would not be surprised if I opened up the BC6-10 and found a BasicStamp of some sort in there controlling it.

Please don't go off and start shoving wires into the port! You can not blame me with blowing up your cool new charger!!!!

dizzy

11-09-2008, 09:13 AM

Read post 15. The USB chipset is external and is a dongle, it is not built into the charger for the BC-6, BC6-10, BC8 and BC8DX. Obviously you guys have not seen it.

http://www.bantamtek.com/image/Accessory/BC8_USB.jpg

Actually this is the best picture I have seen of the cable and adapter. The adapter looked like a silkscreen on the CD in all of the pics I've seen to date.

Evan, if you are the importer, do you have them for sale?

RC Accessory

11-09-2008, 02:17 PM

Actually this is the best picture I have seen of the cable and adapter. The adapter looked like a silkscreen on the CD in all of the pics I've seen to date.

Evan, if you are the importer, do you have them for sale?

Part # is EAC200 and in stock.
http://www.rcaccessory.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=256