Watt the heck, I went to a 58T gear and increased RPM's!

[TomC]

I run a stock Hacker Ion with 54T gear, 690 LG All Rounders, 10S2P 7400 Flightpower Evo20's and 32-GP3700 NiMH's. With this setup, and +/- 9 deg pitch, I got 2000 rpm with the Lipo's and 1950 rpm with the Nimh's. Motor temps were 160 deg F with Lipos and 150 deg with Nimh's. I use 3 PC fans (I'm a real PC fan Fan!). One in the nose (40mm 12v) blowing out to the front of the canopy (to help cool the batteries), one in front of the motor blowing on the motor, and one behind the motor sucking air from the motor (both 50mm 12v) and blowing over the controller. I wire the 3-12v fans in series (making them 36v fans) and hook them up to the esc battery leads.

While all this seemed pretty good, I noticed that the motor was bogging a bit on hard climb-outs (although these were already pretty ballistic) so I thought I'd try going to a bigger gear. I bought a 56T and 58T gear and installed the 58T one to see what would happen. I expected the RPM to drop ~150 and to get an extra 1-2 min flight time with my Nimhs's.

Anyway, what I got surprised me. I got a +50 RPM increase with both cells and a lot more power (higher climb-out rate). My duration with the Nimh's stayed the same (~6 min) but my motor temps went down about 10 deg F and my battery temp went down about 5 deg F.

It seems that I may have hit a 'sweet spot" for my setup and/or maybe my stock hacker motor has a bit higher KV than spec. I guess I'll have to order a 60T gear to see if I've hit the top of the roller coaster!

Cheers,

TomC

[mhale71]

sounds good tom, i fried my 55t middle gear when my ion got shot down the other week, i look foward to hearing your findings on the lower gear ratios - im runnign 10s3p 6000mah TP lipos.

--mike

[MinAirChris]

Take a close look at the gear. On one side there is a molded in mark that has the tooth count, or you could just count the teeth. My guess is you have gone backwards and actually decreased the gear ratio. Be careful of this as the Hacker does not like to be pushed as hard as some of the lower ratios (under 21.6:1) will push it.

Chris

[TomC]

Chris,

Counted teeth twice; the old stock one is 54T and the new one I installed is 58T. I've ordered a 60T gear. It will hopefully drop my headspeed a little. I'm still pretty surprised with thew results of the 58T.

Please don't tell me that Hacker motors always start performing better, just before they fail!

Cheers,

Tom C

[WillJames]

Please don't tell me that Hacker motors always start performing better, just before they fail!


I guess you have gotten some PM's???

[Rickster]

HMMM..I wonder if Hacker motors will de-mag like the Kontroniks Twist series do.. I know it is a result of core heat and the hacker motor does run hot.. I know on the Kontronik Twist line they will start to run away when they de-mag.. I think my Twist 33(3300kv) wound up at around a 3800kv when it demagged .. When they de-mag they gain RPM and lose Torque big time...

Might be what is happening in your situation..

Rick

[ChrisS]

"Please don't tell me that Hacker motors always start performing better, just before they fail!"

This is a possibility, you could send the motor and speed control to AeroModel for a check up, just to be sure. They can measure it and make sure that it is peforming to specification.

Chris

[TomC]

Heh, I told you guys not to tell me this!

My stock Hacker motor has never run above 160 deg F in it's ~50 flights, ~20 of these with 32 cell GP3700 Nimhs. I had an experienced Xcell heli guy optical tach it for me today at the field, and with 10S 7400 Evo 20's it was hovering at 2150. During a fast climb-out, it was ballistic (lots of torque, more than with the 54T gear) and actually increased it's headspeed to ~2200 rpm on the way up!

I really do not feel comfortable flying this heli at this high headspeed, it's too twitchy (for me anyway), even with 60% dual rates and heavier (26.6g) black paddles. I've ordered a 60T and it should get here next week so I'll try it and let you know what happens. Also, in the meantime, I'll try lowereing my idle-up v-curve down 5-10% on endpoints and midpoint (curently 100-80-100). Just in case, I'll do a bit more sim practice on autos!

If it continues to gain rpms I'll do as you suggest Chris and send the motor/controller in for inspection. My gut feel is that I have got a stock Hacker motor that is ~10% out of spec kv wise. I had an old Aveox sensored brushless motor that, when tested, was out by about 9%. Thanks.

Cheers,

Tom C

[Laurens]

Sounds to me like your motor is demagnetising.

[TomC]

Laurens,

If it is de-magnetising, why am I pulling a bit more Torque?

Cheers,

Tom C

[fitenfyr]

Tom,
Don't wait pull it now.
If the motor goes you are going to loose a whole lot of parts in the process assuming you get it down in one piece.

When mine went late last fall the BRAND NEW 60T was stripped like a shaved ice cone. Crap was everywhere.
You can loose the controller also if it goes really haywire.

Luckily mine was only a few feet up in a hover when it went. The auto if you want to call it that was pretty uneventful.

Now for the really great news.
Hacker took about 4 months to repair it. They had to finally send all the parts they had in the shop back to Germany so Hacker could "build" some new motors I guess.
Not faulting them per se, but you could be out that motor all summer if you don't get it in now. That is assuming they are still having the same supply issue.
Also the fact you are out of the US may improve that return time.

Now the other option is to drop in a Neu motor in it's place. :D

Seriously though I would pull that motor now before you end up balling up the heli due to a motor locking up at a rather inoportune time.
EVERY Hacker I have heard of going out did similar things to what you are seeing. Even mine in the low load aerial photography application I was using gave me hints I just didn't catch at the time.

[marcelino]

Tom,

i am not sure about demagnetising, too.

But:
If the coating on the wires inside the Motor comes off, due to overtemp inside the windings,
they cut short and you got a different (higher) KV, like a motor with less windings.

about this is what happened to several Twist 3700 used in Eolo/ Spirit.

You would have to lower V-curves on TX more and more for same Headspeed. Watch out not to overload the ESC or Battery!

I would give it to a check and/ or repair as soon as possible.

Marcel

[Laurens]

I thought it was demagnetising because thats the same what happened to a friends Twist 33 in a Spirit. Huge gain of rpm, but much more amp draw too.

[TomC]

OK, now you've managed to put the fear of God into me! I was supposed to be demo flying my Ion at an Electric fun-fly tomorrow but will now park it and throw my little Trex around instead.

Early next week I'll strap my Ion to the good old test bench and run it up checking the current draw, etc and see if it tells me anything. I've got a friend close by with an Ion and spare Hacker (he's using a Neu and likes it a lot) so I may borrow it to see if I get significantly different results.

It still seems like a funny coincidence that this potential problem only occured when I changed out my 54T gear for a 58T one. Prior to this, the heli headspeed has been very consistent. But like you point out, no sense taking any chances with a lot of time and money flying around! Thanks for the heads-up guys.

I may end up in the market for a new Neu sooner than I wanted to. I hear the new ones coming out will have built-in fans and run very cool. Anyone got one of these installed in an Ion yet?

Cheers,

Tom C

[WillJames]

It still seems like a funny coincidence that this potential problem only occured when I changed out my 54T gear for a 58T one. Prior to this, the heli headspeed has been very consistent. But like you point out, no sense taking any chances with a lot of time and money flying around! Thanks for the heads-up guys.


Exactly. Rebuilding helis because of pilot error sucks no matter if it is your thumbs or your lack of foresight. I have had this beaten onto me from experience. :DOH

A tip for the Neu flyers is add some extra green CA to the bottom end cap, or like was suggested to me from a well respected Electric Guru, put a few strips of JB slow as "straps" to hold it on. Seems like the right torque sideloads on the output shaft can cause the endcap to pop. Not a big deal, you just put it back on unless you loose the bearing when it pops. A little PM here goes a long way. The Neu is a very strong and efficient motor for your Ion!! If you are not flying your Ion hard 3D, you may not need to do anything, the only time I have seen the endcaps pop is under HARD 3D or a crash.

[fitenfyr]

Mine went out IMMEDIATELY after I installed the new 60T. :D

[TomC]

Well guys, You were right!

Today I put in a 60T gear (which takes a lot more trouble than it's worth). My Ion went to about 100 ft and then I heard the big whine and gear strip. I managed to Auto it ok. The motor was smoking hot and the controler was pretty hot.

Guess I'll send this motor/cpm\controler back for warranty.

What's my best motor/esc option to go with next? I'm thinking neu motor.

TomC

[bob00]

Hi TomC, sorry I didn't see this earlier...

My Hacker started making *balistic* power just before the end - it also started pulling massive current and running hotter than normal.

My understanding is that one or more magnets begin to slip on the rotor changing the motor's timing - thus the apparent increased power.

The Neu is an almost drop-in replacement (need to open the lower support ring slightly if you want to use it), plus you can loose the fan. Or with a little more effort you could install an Actro 32-3 - way fewer parts and lighter. Both are significantly more powerful than the Hacker motor.

- Rob

[TomC]

Thanks Rob,

I guess what I really need to know what's the best motor/esc to replace the stock Hacker with using 10S packs.

Cheers,

Tom C

[WillJames]

I would say get the Actro 32-3 and loose the secondary gear and associated parts. WIth the new 100T main gears, this setup is great flying.

What is your flying styule Tom?

[TomC]

Sport and light 3D. Looks like the hacker esc should be fine for me (10S).

Cheers,

Tom C

[WillJames]

Yes the ESC should be fine. If you are not flying hard 3D then I would recommend the 32-3 single stage. Keep it simple. Great power, flys very nice. There is video of my 32-3 Ion flying in our video forum, one with HC and Marcus flying then one with me.

http://www.helifreak.com/about11166.html

http://www.helifreak.com/about10476.html

[Rickster]

Will is right..The Actro is a real reliable powerhouse and with the addition of a 100T main gear and some EVO 5S1P 3700Mah packs you can make jsut about any 90 size bird ashamed they came out to the field..

Rick

[WillJames]

I fly with all OMI modded motors at our field, and some custom pistons and sleves, so I can't really say ashamed..... that was a good one though.


The REAL "No BullShit" deal on 5s1p at this time is....
The only downside of running the 32-3 withthe 5s1p's is that you get the constant voltage drop from startup until when the timer goes off. It is not that bad at all, but it is noticible to me, (watch the video and see if you can see it) especially on really windy days. I fly V-Blades which aggravates the issue in the wind a tiny bit over the tapered blades like the MAH G2 or the TG or the Rotortechs I have also flown on the Ion-X. I was so happy when Vic made the new airfoil and I will not be changing blades, I love the way the V's fly and auto.

To remedy it, we are trying different things. Bobby "B" Smith is a great inspiration to me and he is one of the few people I know with the nutz to try new things and new ways of making it happen for electrics. Not just talk about it without really knowing, or just figuring it on paper then talking about it without really knowing, like so many people do on teh forums, but actually try it and see for real. Kudos B! You are Da Man!

First let me preface this with what I have learned so far since I went all Electric, what works on paper does not always work flying the heli, results are varied and sometime suprising and even shocking between what the paper says and what actually happens with the heli.

OK here is what I am now trying......
I installed the HV-110 today on the Actro powered Ion and I am going to try running it in High Governor mode at about roughly 80% or to get about 1850-1900 on the headspeed. Hopefully this will mask the voltage drop over the Hacker 7-O-H I was running at esentially 100%.

Next thing to try if I can work up the nuts is to try the 6s1p EVO 20 packs and High Gov mode but the curves down around roughly 50-60% which should yield out something around 2000-2200 on the head. (yes these are rough numbers, figuring on paper is not that accurate either, it only sometimes works out to the REAL deal) This should mask the voltage drop well, but what happens if I have a runaway condition?

What do you other Ion-X guys think? The reason this is so important to me is thath to get the power to weight ratio of the hot 90 machines we have got to do something!! Also, I ahve flown the Ion at 12.5 pounds and I MUCH PREFER 10 to 10.5. I am weighing in right now at 10.05 pounds withthe 5s1p's and from looking at the specs, it would be about 10.5-10.7 with a lighter LiPo RX pack and the 6s1p's. I LOVE how the Ion flys, it is my favorite heli I have ever owned and I want to see what I can do to help people realize the full potential from this machine.

What is a guy to do?????

[Rickster]

I agree and that is why I carefully added "Just about any" in the statement :D ..

I wish the Hacker 77-O would hold 11S. I too would like a consistant 2000 on the head from start to near finish. I think 11S would cover the threshold but since we are having to go to a different controller might as well go to 12S.. If the CCHV controller's GOV feature workds favorably with the Outrunner Actro this will probably work really well for keeping a constant HS. I really like the GOV feature on my JAZZ 55 and 40-6-18 for maintaining HS.. Keep us informed on how the Actro acts with the HV controller, you might be on to something..

Rick