Any here with X9303 or 12X miffed about the DX7SE 11ms rating?

[John Cook]

Shouldn't JR give X9303 and 12x users the FREE upgrade to 11ms. I mean, how is a lower priced radio able to be faster than your flagship models. I've spend several THOUSANDS of dollars with JR/Spektrum this year, and while they work just as well now as then, I do feel cheated to a point now that the DX7SE has 11ms. I won't move to the DX7SE for 11ms, as I prefer the feel of the X9303 and 12X radios, but who here feels the same as me. I would imagine it's a firmware update, or at the most a small IC chip that would need to be replaced.

Then again, they wouldn't be able to rape us for a new X9303SE, or 12Xse model in the next year or two :bomb:

[Ah Clem]

I skewed your poll...

11ms would be nice, but I am not going to worry about it.

I fly the 12X 90% of the time (the DX7 has been relegated to the simulator and to training my son).

I suspect that I might be able to feel the slight difference, but don't know. If the DX7SE had full ball bearing sticks, I might pick one up as a spare.

The manufacturers are always going to come up with new and better things. I don't want to see JR stand still, just so the 12X is not obsoleted (and it is very far from that).

[John Cook]

hey no worries. I'm back and forth myself. But I do feel that the 12x should be given the upgrade free of charge, probably the x9303 too

[Ah Clem]

Well, if they do offer a free upgrade, I will be one of the first in line!

[LjArpin]

Remember though that there is a big difference in the amount of information that has to be sent between the number of channels.
Me i dont care either way and feel that there is such good qaulity in the Jr radios!
My .2 cents

[j bomb]

As I understand it, that mod which makes the DX7SE faster, is also what renders it's trainer port unusable.

[sgrim80]

Remember though that there is a big difference in the amount of information that has to be sent between the number of channels.
Me i dont care either way and feel that there is such good qaulity in the Jr radios!
My .2 cents

You said it...this has VERY much to do with the speed of the transmitter. If I am not mistaken, even a regular dx7 transmits the information faster to the heli because it has less information to send.

I'm not talking about resolution here, speed of transmission of data.

[Danal Estes]

You said it...this has VERY much to do with the speed of the transmitter. If I am not mistaken, even a regular dx7 transmits the information faster to the heli because it has less information to send.

I'm not talking about resolution here, speed of transmission of data.

(Bolding mine)

Uh, no. There are SUBSTANTIAL gaps in the transmittal of a (non SE) DX7. That's why they "hum" in a quiet room... they are only radiating RF about 10% of the time. The rate at which they switch on/off (the frame rate) happens to be at a frequency we can hear, and the boards/chips/wiring all flex a tiny, tiny bit as the RF section is powered on/off. The 10% is because 'amount of data' x 'actual bit rate' of the RF encoding is that much less than the frame rate.

A regular DX7 emits these very short frames 20ms apart, giving a rate of about 50 times a second. This means a regular DX7 uses about 2ms of the 20ms window. PLENTY of room to add more channels, like a 12x. Remember, the header and checksums don't get any longer, just 5 more channels at 10 bits (1024 resolution) or 11 bits (2048 resolution). 50 to 55 bits in a packet that is 2ms and several hundred bits long? It might go to 2.5 or 2.7 or something. Maybe even 3ms. Still not a constraint. Gobs of time!

It may not even be that many bits. I'm not sure the last few channels are proportional and/or carried at that same resolution.

Assuming the DX7SE really has 11ms latency (as published, I haven't scoped one yet), then it likely emits frames about half that time or every 5 to 6ms or so. 7 channels at 2ms or 12 at 2.x or 3ms still fit with no issues.

So, no, number of channels has little to do with latency, nor is it why a DX7 is faster than most radios.

It is because the DX7 was the first radio to have an all digital interface between the "stick encoder" and the RF section. All prior radios produced either a PPM or PCM stream, and then RF encoded that. Those streams can't be faster than their fundamental frame rate (mostly still 50Hz)... they are STREAMS. The DX7 digital interface is continuous and parallel. Open one up... there 5 (or is it 6?) wires going to the RF board (not including power). THAT'S what makes it faster.

[Danal Estes]

I didn't answer the poll, because my choice would be:

It is a time of rapid innovation in the RC industry. I knew, absolutely, the day I bought my 12x that some radio would surpass some feature of the12x within months. I will use it for a few years, then upgrade, just like every prior radio I've ever purchased.



So what about the price? The cost of a 12x, as a % of my income and net worth at this point in my life, as compared to the cost of prior radios as a % of my income and net worth back years ago when I bought each of those radios... by that measure, this is probably the cheapest radio I've ever purchased.

I can see where someone who views the investment as a much larger chunk of their fortune might be upset by the timing of the 7SE. I'm not, at all, and I fully expect there will be something in the next 6 months, and next year, and so forth, in newer radios that the 12x doesn't have. Meanwhile, I'll be at the field, flying my radio that I REALLY like, and having fun!

[John Cook]

Some very good replies. I'm very happy so far nobody has chosen to drag someone elses opinions down into the mud :).

I can see everyone's viewpoints and I can agree to some point with them all.

My point, as being a bit miffed about the 11ms framerate, is that as Dan points out, I fully expect my 12X, $1,500 Tx to be outdated. I don't expect features of my said radio to be eclipsed by a much lower end radio within 6mos of release. In that case, I would expect JR/Spektrum to have implimented said changed to the flagship model.

I also thank the above poster who explained network/packet theory and latency to a point. I'm pretty ignorant in that area, but I found it hard to believe it couldn't be done.

THAT SAID!!! I don't know if I could notice a difference anyway. However, knowing I got overlooked in that respect is probably what upsets me more.

Owning ALOT of higher end products, and some could debate my definition, but let's just agree within a brand ok :).

For example. Let's say for the sake of argument, when I purchased my Corvette Z06 in 2006(07 model), 6 mos later, GM comes out with a Buick that's faster in the 1/4 mile(Car guys know it happened in the 80's so let's not say it couldn't happen ok hehe). How do you think the Vette owners would react. Similarly the Buick guys would be thrilled to some respect they had something the Vette owners didn't. In the end the Vette is still a VASTLY superior car, handling, resale(although both GM and consequently resale is garbage :oops:), fit and finish, appeal, etc.... I guess my point is maybe JR/Spektrum should consider those owners who are offended to a point, and upgrade them(if possible) or at least explain how or why it isn't. I could accept that. "The flux capacitor(joke) on your 12x cannot supprt the 11ms framerate" Ok, sux but at least an explanation. As it sits now, my conspiricy laden mind, seems to consider that JR/Spektrum cares more about moving on to the next "big" product than supporting the high end sales they made. I guess I feel with what I paid for this Tx there should be a level of support above and beyond standard radios. Let's face it, there is not that much extra $ put into a 12x. We are buying R&D, and I feel support too. Hopefully, this is coming across somewhat coherently. My 3yr old is running amuck in the house and just pulled some pizza out of the garbage and tried to eat it. I guess I've got that going for me "which is nice" :)

I didn't answer the poll, because my choice would be:

It is a time of rapid innovation in the RC industry. I knew, absolutely, the day I bought my 12x that some radio would surpass some feature of the12x within months. I will use it for a few years, then upgrade, just like every prior radio I've ever purchased.



So what about the price? The cost of a 12x, as a % of my income and net worth at this point in my life, as compared to the cost of prior radios as a % of my income and net worth back years ago when I bought each of those radios... by that measure, this is probably the cheapest radio I've ever purchased.

I can see where someone who views the investment as a much larger chunk of their fortune might be upset by the timing of the 7SE. I'm not, at all, and I fully expect there will be something in the next 6 months, and next year, and so forth, in newer radios that the 12x doesn't have. Meanwhile, I'll be at the field, flying my radio that I REALLY like, and having fun!

[JC]

... My 3yr old is running amuck in the house and just pulled some pizza out of the garbage and tried to eat it. I guess I've got that going for me "which is nice" :)THAT brought a ray of sunshine to my otherwise crappy day.
:)

[DLBT]

I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a x9303. Do you guys think there might be a new model coming soon? Should I wait for a bit to see?

[John Cook]

I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a x9303. Do you guys think there might be a new model coming soon? Should I wait for a bit to see?

I doubt it. The x9303 is an awesome radio and I think the DX7se is kinda fluke tweak anyway. To me it's a marginal gain versus disabling features, and I've got myself calmed down now over the issue eheh!

So to answer your question. I don't see JR upgrading the X9303 or 12x for at least a year or two. That said, just as sure as $hit after you buy one, they will update it and you will be mad at me for life then hehe!

[maxadventure]

I'd like the opportunity to upgrade my current investment, doesn't even need to be free. My radio is easily a factor of 10 better than my last radio, and does everything I need today, through the next couple of years easily, regardless if I were to upgrade or not.

[stirfri4202]

from the scopes ive seen

the regular dx7 is faster than the x9303 any way...
fastest to slowest was dx7se-dx6i-dx7-x9303-futaba fasst-and way behind in the dust was the futaba 14mz :p

[Four Stroker]

You guys know there is someone who actually measures this stuff:

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t172571p1/?highlight=latency

The DX7se was the Spektrum response to the 10C eating their lunch.

[Justin Stuart]

I'd like to upgrade my 12X. Do you think this would possible? Would it require a new chipset, or could it be accomplished with a firmware upgrade? I'm upset that they didn't include the best features in the 12X. That's a lot of money to spend only to have your investment eclipsed by a much less expensive radio.

By the way, has anyone seen the DX9 Gold advertised with Century RC? I'm not sure what it is, but it appears to be a X9303SE.

[theaton56]

The 12X would lose all it's backward compatibility if it was upgraded to 11msec. The 12X on 2.4 GHz still uses the standard 12X board and processor as the 35/40/41/72 MHz versions.

The module on the "dedicated version" is still fitted but is not designed to be replaced by the user. The modular type is exactly the same as the 2.4 GHz "dedicated" when fitted with the 2.4 GHz module except for the antenna being fitted to the module housing,

[Justin Stuart]

The 12X would lose all it's backward compatibility if it was upgraded to 11msec.

Once switching to 2.4GHz, I can't imagine why anyone would want to go back.