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James Kovach
01-11-2009, 10:05 PM
Sparx - The test I just did made a difference of about 3 degrees at full positive pitch (10 degrees to 13 after flip). If I set my head up for +-10, then performed the mixer arm flip and got +-13, then went into swashmix and lowered pitch till I got back to +-10, would I see any improvement in cyclic response (improvement being quicker response) because flybar has less influence on blade pitch? .. or would I be back to normal?

Yes, you will see some cyclic repsonse increase because the flybar is influencing the blade pitch less. But not only do you get the increase in your collective pitch, but you have an increase in your cyclic pitch as well. So if you left your Ale and Elv Swash mixes the same you are going to see an increase in cyclic because you now have more cyclic pitch.

Penguin
01-11-2009, 10:32 PM
Yes, you will see some cyclic repsonse increase because the flybar is influencing the blade pitch less. But not only do you get the increase in your collective pitch, but you have an increase in your cyclic pitch as well. So if you left your Ale and Elv Swash mixes the same you are going to see an increase in cyclic because you now have more cyclic pitch.


Very informative!!! Thanks a alot :thumbup:

James Kovach
01-11-2009, 10:34 PM
No Problem :)

Blade~400~er
01-11-2009, 11:45 PM
if anyone cares heres what the manual says on getting the 400 to respond quicker (see pic on link) http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=113101&page=2

Tail boom
01-12-2009, 11:36 AM
Hi Penguin,

You might want to add to the list that cyclic servos with a higher speed (and appropriate torque) add to the responsiveness, too.

Best,
Frank

Penguin
01-12-2009, 11:58 AM
Hi Penguin,

You might want to add to the list that cyclic servos with a higher speed (and appropriate torque) add to the responsiveness, too.

Best,
Frank

Good point! I hope some people who have done some of these mods will chime in with relative impact, at least how they compare to removing the flybar weights. Moving flybar weights all the way in sure had a noticeable impact to me.

I understand the mixer arm flip physics and impact a lot better now thanks to Sparx.

Heres latest list of mods to make B400 flip and roll faster and my guesses on impact:
1. Move flybar weights all the way in. 5 (because I know what impact it has, other ratings are guesses based on this one)
2. Remove flybar weights. 6
3. Replace wood blades with CF. 4
4. Replace flybar paddels with CF. 3
5. Flip mixer arms. 6
6. Blade grip flip. 1
7. Install flybarless system. 9
8. Add negative expo. 1
9. What did I miss?[/quote]
10. Swap stock B400 head for Trex 450 style head with more cyclic pitch. 7
11. Stiffer dampners. 4
12. Faster cyclic servos than stock. 3

Tail boom
01-12-2009, 01:00 PM
I forgot to ask: When you say move the weights all the way in, what do you actually mean? On the stock B400 the weights are in form of a paddle adapter that the paddles screw on to. The only way (I see) to move the weights more in, is to screws the paddles more in. Is that what you mean? Stock setup is to have the paddles sit out 67 mm (measured flybar control arm to weight).

Penguin
01-12-2009, 01:31 PM
I forgot to ask: When you say move the weights all the way in, what do you actually mean? On the stock B400 the weights are in form of a paddle adapter that the paddles screw on to. The only way (I see) to move the weights more in, is to screws the paddles more in. Is that what you mean? Stock setup is to have the paddles sit out 67 mm (measured flybar control arm to weight).

I removed the stock Eflight paddles from the Eflight weight blocks, moved the weight blocks all the way in till they hit the see-saw, then installed Trex 450 paddles directly onto Eflight flybar. My Eflight paddles kept turning on me and didn't stay level. I have flown Align paddles for a long time now with the Eflight weight blocks touching the paddles. This config felt the same as stock till I recently moved the weight blocks in.

I believe gyroscopic inertia is proportional to the square of the distance of the weight so I'm guessing removing the weights will not be a huge jump from moving weights all the way in. I plan to remove them during my next maintenance session. Then maybe try the mixer arm flip if I get good enough to want even more cyclic response (faster rolls). I have Trueblood dampners on my Readyheli wish list. I have tried CF main blades before and noticed a significant difference but it wasn't as much as moving the flybar weights all the way in. After that, mods get more expensive and probably not worth it to me.

Blade~400~er
01-12-2009, 01:33 PM
I forgot to ask: When you say move the weights all the way in, what do you actually mean? On the stock B400 the weights are in form of a paddle adapter that the paddles screw on to. The only way (I see) to move the weights more in, is to screws the paddles more in. Is that what you mean? Stock setup is to have the paddles sit out 67 mm (measured flybar control arm to weight).


if you get the cf padddles the weights are seperate and can be easily placed on the fly-bar where desired....the paddles now just screw on the flybar like the Trex ones...im guessing the wieghts are optional becaseu there two peices rather thant one:confused:

Slyster
01-12-2009, 01:40 PM
No one mentioned headspeed. Flying at 100% idle up really makes a difference!

Penguin
01-12-2009, 01:46 PM
No one mentioned headspeed. Flying at 100% idle up really makes a difference!

1. Move flybar weights all the way in. 5 (because I know what impact it has, other ratings are guesses based on this one)
2. Remove flybar weights. 6
3. Replace wood blades with CF. 4
4. Replace flybar paddels with CF. 3
5. Flip mixer arms. 6
6. Blade grip flip. 1
7. Install flybarless system. 9
8. Add negative expo. 1
9. What did I miss?[/quote]
10. Swap stock B400 head for Trex 450 style head with more cyclic pitch. 7
11. Stiffer dampners. 4
12. Faster cyclic servos than stock. 3
13. Switch from stock normal flight mode to 100% idle up. 7

Slyster
01-12-2009, 02:33 PM
oppsie I was looking for the word headpseed in the lists.

killboy
02-15-2009, 12:46 PM
oppsie I was looking for the word headpseed in the lists.

No I think he posted a revised list with your suggestion, showing you he added it to the list. Prior lists don't show Idle Up.