no more instruction manuals?

[KC]

I just recently bought an Ion and was surprised when all I found was a cd-rom instead of a real manual.

I opened the CD rom and found the drawings and explanations in two separate files. ... so before building the heli I had to build the instructions too!

what next, we ship MA the box for the kit before ordering it :D

KC

[DavidH]

MA went to the instructions and drawings on a CD when the Tempest kits were released. All the future MA kits will have the CD instructions and drawings. In the future there may be pictures or videos on the CD to show the build process for some assemblies.

David

[JonMann]

I think it is a great idea. Usually manuals start looking a little rugged over time, just print a new one. Plus, if they actually start adding the video instruction that would be a very nice feature.

[WillJames]

They should add some of Shannon's setup videos. They are EXCELLENT content and very well produced and clear. :)

[KC]

and why?

I complained about this elsewhere online but I know many of the the MA reps have moved to this forum so lets hear what you guys have to say about this excuse of an instruction manual.

.....and why reps / folks in the loop havent done something about the slacker writing manuals over there other than defend him.

would folks agree that a decent instruction manual keeps the explanations concise, p/ns and diagrams in the same place?

that would be something printed or printable...not something the end user has to sort through and cut and paste together themself.

I cant be the only one who is POed that he paid 1400.00 and didnt get an instruction manual with it. Looks like drawings and a draft to me.

[DavidH]

There is an instruction manual and drawings in the Tempest and IonX kits. It is just on a CD. It would be the same instructions and drawings if it was printed.

There may be people that have bought the Tempest and IonX that do not like the CD instructions. I have not heard too many complain about them being on a CD.

I personally like the CD and was glad to hear when MA started using them. Makes it easier to update instructions and drawings if needed.

David

[capebob]

I think the instruction manual on a CD is a great idea. I have many manuals, most of which look like they've been used on the bottom of a parrot's cage. :lol:

Bob

[KC]

you guys are missing my point.

it isnt an instruction manual!

I'm not upset if an instruction manual was put onto CD-rom at all.

What you have is a draft and a set of drawings and an addendum saying "call us if you have a problem"

------

the last MA I bought for myself was a Fury Extreme a few weeks ago, it still came with an "instruction manual" and a "parts catalog"

the beauty of this logic is if you build a lot of things and want to ever get it done right and quickly you do this:

1) look at the drawings in the manual and identify all the fasteners p/ns

2) go through the parts catalog and translate the #s to the part name that works for you and write it next to the p/n in the drawing...i.e a 0061 is a 3x8 socket , etc etc

3) read the wordy part when you are stumped, building a heli isnt rocket science, unless you dont have an instruction manual and an alphanumeric parts catalog to work backwards from.

(even the raptor has that)

------

lets just look at the left main frame step on the Ion,

there is a 3x6, 3x8, and 3x10 socket, and a 3x8 hex, the drawings are small and the arrows are hard to follow, the diagram is overloaded with repeat p/ns, and it is drawn backwards to boot

you think that is great?

-------

In the draft you guys call an instruction manual, there is also no mention of the quantity of each fastener in each subassembly parts list.

..thats just great, no inventory has been provided for the customer either.

----


what about all those guys who dont have a computer or a printer?

[Tabbytabb]

Instruction manual on CD is a bunch of bull, I can just imagine the look on my Dad's face when he opens a 1400 ion kit to find a cd "instruction manual". He and the computer are arch enemies. Why would a company so completely disenfranchise a sizeable demographic, the computer fearful??

Maybe it should be offered as an upgrade :arggg:

Tabb

[Spitfire_mk5]

I can't say i was thrilled to open the box and not find a manual but have no problem with it either.

However reading the 'rocket science' really gets to you after a while and your about ready to open all the little baggies, dump everything in a pile, and hammer it all together by the light of burning instructions and chanting to apease the heli gods. Those kind of instructions would be great for a raptor but isn't it reasonable to assume that anyone who is building MinAirs knows to put locktite on the bolts without being told every 5 lines?

[WillJames]

I work in the IS Industry and I have not gotten a manual with anything for about 10 years. You get used to it pretty fast when NOBODY provides manuals. Makes for much faster searching for pieces of information than digging through HUGE boilerplate.

Honestly I have never built a MA machine, so I don't know how hard it is. From an environmental standpoint, there is a lot of pressure on every business I deal with to minimize paper, and about 1/2 of the businesses I work for are almost completely paperless, so it is no big surprise to me. I have the equivelant of probably 1000 books on one shelf of a shelving unit and I personally prefer CD Documentation over books just for the space and tree savings, but that is just me.

I agree that if you don't have a computer it would really suck to get the CD. I'm sure that something can be worked out about it. Did you call MA and voice your displeasure KC or ask for a hard copy?

Seems like everybody is getting Fury's or P-MAX's but me these days. :( I'm jealous!!

[Russ McC]

I don’t get your problem, every one of the manufactures does there manuals different to some degree, so who cares! I printed the manual, I read it, I understood it and built the machine, In the end all I care about is having a great machine, all the information is there to help you build the machine properly so have fun, no need to get worked up. Seems a company can bring a revolutionary heli to market and some one will still go out of there way to bad mouth them for something. Hears an idea build it and get it flying then see if you care about how the manual was written or its format. I personally like the manuals MA provides, they go the extra mile to try and provide all the information needed, they bag each assembly separately and mark the bag, I think it’s very good.

As far as defending Tim and the Min Air company goes I do this because I consider Tim and Cindy S as friends as do many others hear. I also think the people at Min Air deserve a great deal of credit for always pushing this hobby ahead with better products year after year. The Ion-X whose manual you’re complaining about is the biggest thing to hit this market in at-least five years, it is an awesome machine and is the beginning of a major change in this hobby. And all from a very small but successful company hear in the USA. I’m very proud of my friends at Min Air for there dedication to advancing this great hobby :shock:

[KC]

so my concern is something to be downplayed and ridiculed by reps huh?

I'll remember that the next I should have a question one of you guys could figure out.

Russ, charm school is still available if you act now.

[JonMann]

Build the helicopter - fly it - you'll forget all about the manual :D :D :D

[WillJames]

Nobody is ridiculing you KC. You have brought up a valid point. The reason I asked if you called MA about it is because from what I have seen they want to hear about thinigs such as this, and they will listen if you call them or email them.

I am not, and will most likely never ba a MA rep because they dont take flunkie wanna-bees. :) I'm working on my flying as time allows, but I know personally a lot of people who are not MA reps or affiliated with them in any way that have gotten great service and support from them. Hammer our flying buddy who is here on HF is a great example of this. He has been flying MA for a very long time, and he still has MA stuff intermingled with his #1 machine which is currently a Raptor 90.

I am sorry you feel as if you had been ridiculed. I don't see it, and I hope you will not feel that way. Please call me anytime if you want to talk about it. 828-242-1196 I'll try to help in any way I can. I'm not a rep but I have friends who are and I'm willing to do anything I can to facilitate things.

Thank you,

[Russ McC]

KC,

I rely don’t have a problem with the fact that you or any one might give constructive criticism or advise about haw you might like to see things change, even if I don’t agree it’s fine with me. My issue with you is you are coming off as if you bought this kit just to look for what you could find wrong with it rather then what you could find good in it. Then you attack Tim and his team that wrought the manual by calling them “slackers” and say your “POed” and it looks like you have nothing at all good to say. You’re also attacking the reps for not doing something about the people righting the manuals; this is how it looks to me reading your comments. Am I miss reading what you said? If you have a problem with something no matter what it is you will get a better result every time by being courteous and constructive rather then ranting and attacking, and don’t call Tim or his people with this attitude it wont get you what you want. If you have any questions about any part of your Ion or any Min Air product that we can actually help you with don’t hesitate to ask :)

[Russ McC]

the last MA I bought for myself was a Fury Extreme a few weeks ago, it still came with an "instruction manual" and a "parts catalog"

the beauty of this logic is if you build a lot of things and want to ever get it done right and quickly you do this:

1) look at the drawings in the manual and identify all the fasteners p/ns

2) go through the parts catalog and translate the #s to the part name that works for you and write it next to the p/n in the drawing...i.e a 0061 is a 3x8 socket , etc etc

3) read the wordy part when you are stumped, building a heli isnt rocket science, unless you dont have an instruction manual and an alphanumeric parts catalog to work backwards from.


I guess I don’t understand what you’re saying; every thing you are asking for is there in the manual, part #s, part description, the drawings and the explanation of assembly. As far as the Fury Extreme manual goes this one is done exactly the same way and is for the most part not changed since I started flying Min Air in 98. I believe the Extreme manual did have the drawings in the same book with the instructions but that is the only difference and the Extreme manual if it is the one with the drawings together in the same book is u-neek to MA as they are normally not together. This is more like what you would get if you where building a full scale air craft rather then a plastic toy.

Is it possible we are not talking about the same manual? Do you think you got something by mistake that was not meant for you? I don’t see how but maybe you did not get the manual meant for the customer but something ells by mistake?

[WillJames]

Thats what I'm thinking. I saw Shannon's Ion manual he printed and the pictures are awesome in it. Mor like photos than the crappy drawings that the Raptor Manual has. I was actually impressed at the Ion Manual. Looked a lot nicer than most I have seen.

Maybe he did get the wrong one??

[KC]

I can see I brought this to a bunch of lemmings, I will take it to MA and probably get the same drop jaw dumb response huh?

you missed my points entirely and I cant write any more clearly for people whose objectives are to flash their street cred and push some guys manual that didnt come in my kit

nuf said, learn how to listen to customers if you call yourself a rep, we pay for your program, the pros at MA have left the building, lets see a rep step up with the people skills they had instead of another wannabe and another real pro in there!

[Russ McC]

If you read what you write you might see that half of what you say doesn’t make any sense, so how are we supposed to know what you’re talking about! Yes you are a test of any bodies people skills, you are irrational and cant seem to be helped, but just want to attack me and Min Air, so this is it for me, and don’t come up asking me for help at any of the summers FFs, I doubt you will get it. :shock:

[KC]

good old fashion mud slinging

pass my complaint onto your boyfriend at MA, you obviously cant handle customers.

I'm done with you, get a clue and learn how to be a pro, I'm not the one who has to be a pro here, I'm paying good money and expect a damn instruction manual at the most.

just another customer fed up with the arrogance at MA.


KC
Nobody Aircraft USA rep :D

[tadawson]

Let's face it, this would appear (at least to me) to be a really piss poor choice on the part of MA. Not everyone has a computer, but most folks can figure out how to read a paper document. That, and there is no way in h**l that I am taking a good computer into the shop with glues, lubes, etc. so that I can save some cheapa** mfg. a few cents by not shipping a manual, and risking damage to my computer. Print it myself? Why the h**l would I want to do that, when the book should have come with the product? Honestly, I was considering getting a Tempest for my next heli, but with this attitude, I feel that I will really have to consider whether I want to go near MA with this kind of (non) customer service thinking.

- Tim

[Tabbytabb]

Agreed Tim, My $200.00 zoom 400 comes with a better (tangible) manual then the Ion.

A compromise would be to make it an option for those who cant do the digi format and leave it as is for those who are comfortable with it the way it is.

At the least the manual should be an option.

Tabb

[WillJames]

KC is is obvious that you are very upset by your CD manual. You can call me whatever you want, but the simple fact remains that you get a lot more flys with honey than you do with vinegar. I think your points have been lost because of your approach, and I am sorry to see that.

I wonder about your motivation for trying to stirr up a fuss and do a bunch of name calling BEFORE you make a 5 minutes phone call. I honestly believe that if you had called, they would have made you happy.

Thats it.

[Steve Campbell]

<<...don't come up asking me for help...>>

Real professional, Russ... :roll:

While I agree that KC came on a bit strong, I also agree with his gripe.

I have built five X-Cells. The old-fashioned approach of plans and a paper manual appeal to many modelers. Just because the latest rage is digitalized instructions doesn't mean that everybody is going to embrace it.

You seem to insinuate that because KC isn't happy with the presentation, he is behind the times. To me, your attitude is "its there, its simple, what's the problem?"

Well, Russ, it may not be simple to some of us. I am 52 years old and very computer-illiterate. I can muddle my way through one, but it takes a lot of effort and aggravation. I do not care to put up with such in my hobby. I can read plans and written instructions just fine. I prefer to do that relaxing at my bench, not hunched up in front of a tv screen.

And I agree with the question, why should I have to use my resources (printer, paper) to produce something that most kits come with? The comment that "other manufacturers are doing it" is lame. MA claims to be a leader. If they are taking their cue from such industry giants as Century and HHI, then what can I say... :dontknow

Anyway, I just felt the need to comment on the overall tone of this thread. I like and respect MA stuff, but these sort of responses aren't exactly the best representation of the company.

.