Cypher 3D - Love this Heli!

[Olgierd]

I have two Cyphers one with GY520 + Futaba 9257 and GY401+Futaba9257. Both helicopters fly very good. Sometime I get slight tail wag with GY401. It is easier to make nice round circle with 520 then 401. I set up my gyros as Finless told in his 101 vids. It is very instructive.

I heard that 401B is a good inexpensive gyro.

Yesterday I was practicing nose in and I have grate weather with the sun directly to the nose of my heli. It is really next level when you can fly in all helicopter orientation. It gives you sense of freedom that you can move bird anywhere in anytime and in any current heli orientation. ;)

[warbirdnut]

Any word yet on upgrade parts for Cypher?

[guil]

Thanks for all the suggestions.
To clarify a bit, once the heli is in the air it is rock steady, no tail wag, and the tail seems to hold steady when "hover flying" around. Sometimes a bit of nose drift, easily fixed with trim.
The problem seems more "mechanical" than "electromechanical", if that makes any sense. It reminds me most of those videos of real helis being tested, shaking themselves apart while ground tethered, hence my labeling it ground resonance in my original post.
I know, someone will suggest just keep it in the air, but at the moment I am a bit put off flying, as it is impossible to take off smoothly, and I am sure it is not doing the helicopter any good.

[blvdbuzzard]

Does it shake, rattle and roll as the head speed gets up to the point of take off? If this is the case, sounds like the main blades are to tight. They are moving to find center. Mine does that the first flight every time. The next flight, if I have not folded the blades, it does not do it.

Try this, spool up and hover a little bit. Land and let the blades stop. Spool up again and lift into hover. Did it do it again?

The Eflite is a Telebee. If you use trim while in heading hold it will cause problems. Try using sub trim or center trim in Airtronics. All telebees and Eflite gyro drift.

The G401B is a less costly gyro. It wants a high speed servo. The Hypreion DS09 is a good servo to go with the G401B. I have a G401B and it holds the tail like glue.. Mine just drifts a little. I will go through the setup again just to see what I can come up with.

I am running (2) of the Logitech 2100T gyro's with the matching 3100G servo. They are a great setup. They go for $110.00 from Heliproz.com

http://www.heliproz.com/prodinfo.asp?number=138520

Way better then the Eflite. I have (2) of the Eflites on my HBKII's. They work, but the Logitech's are so much better.


Dru.

[Vechlor]

guil,
I'm no expert when it comes to fixing "ground resonance", but I found this interesting in a post using a heli stand:

Ground resonance really has nothing to do with the ground. It has to do with the skids being firmly planted SOMEWHERE (we call that "restrained" ) as the head gets out of balance due to the natural lead-lag tendency. And if you get that out of balance condition at the right RPM AND your skids are held down, then voila, your heli takes itself apart before your very eyes.

There are two solutions should you get into the ground resonance phenomenon. 1. Shut down the motor, get out of the danger RPM. 2. Get the skids free of whatever is holding them back immediately.

You can't honestly believe that "ground resonance" can only happen if the heli is sitting on the ground, can you? All it takes is something to restrain the skids. - link (http://runryder.com/helicopter/t522104p2/)

Here's a few things to look over.
Main blades, tail blades and flybar paddles for balance and tracking/pitch. Snugged linkages, not too tight or too loose. Bent feathering spindle and flybar. If you can wiggle the main blades, tail blades or paddles back and forth, then something is loose and should be corrected. As Dru suggested, the main and tail blades should be snug but not tightened.

Hope this helps.

[Globs]

Not too much to report really, my Cypher is flying well. The motor bearings now have more play in than I want so I ordered a motor about 3 weeks ago. I'm still waiting.

Also a couple of my friends have bought Cyphers too, one had a boom strike - so are there any booms in the country? No. HobbyStores Cambridge haven't got main shafts, flybars, booms, bearings or pretty much anything which is a bit dissappointing.

We've found a HobbyStores in Southampton that has everything but the boom, but we are still boomless and the bom is 11mm, not the 12mm Trex450 size.

Still the HobbyStores website prohibits online ordering of Cypher spares. So - people of the UK: How on earth can you get spares for these helicopters??

If this goes on we'll have to sell the airframes and move onto Trex450 clones, because although they are more complex, noisier and spares cost more, at least you can buy the spares for them!!!!
In fact every single time I've waited for a Cypher 3D spare, parts from HongKong have arrived before. Ripmax really need to get their act together, their support is imperceptible.

[warbirdnut]

Well finally solo'd and did the maiden flight successfully with my Cypher.. No damage no crash.. I made training gear for it that helped out a lot.. The crappy gyro works but likes to turn at first on the way up... She seems pretty stable but it's so much different than doing the simulator, even Real Flight, that it blows the mind... Most of the difference just seems to come from the "scare factor".... I don't dare turn it nose in for real, yet, in the sim it's no problem...

Recharging now and hope to have more good flights..

BTW:

I am flying in part over wet grass... Is this a bad idea?

Thanks for all the help and advice..

Ooooh,,, 4th flight lost the tail rotor hub..... :( Oh well could have been worse..

Jim

[blvdbuzzard]

War bird, that is called pucker factor. Never really goes away for the average person. It is not an issue if you are sponsored or have unlimited money.

The wet / damp grass is not a problem.

Did you hit the tail on the ground or did it let go by itself?

Doing good. The first 10 flights are a serious pucker factor. In real life is always harder. There is no red button to push to get a brand new helicopter.



Dru.

[warbirdnut]

Thanks Dru....

Yeah the tail did hit a little hard on one landing... Thing is that it still flew back to the 'launch area' then later I noticed the tail rotor hub was missing.. So I don't know how it flew back to the take off spot... Too bad though just when I started having fun it was time to put it away and wait for parts,,

Pucker factor... Wow.. The level of concentration was weighty and felt like sparring a tough opponent in martial arts, my other hobby.. Amazing stuff..

Right now I am trying to figure out how to get longer flight times... I assume I am getting a lot less because of the pretty heavy training gear... Still a few minutes is just a tease...! Need more amp hours and a very light battery...

Jim

[heli-c]

Not too much to report really, my Cypher is flying well. The motor bearings now have more play in than I want so I ordered a motor about 3 weeks ago. I'm still waiting.

Also a couple of my friends have bought Cyphers too, one had a boom strike - so are there any booms in the country? No. HobbyStores Cambridge haven't got main shafts, flybars, booms, bearings or pretty much anything which is a bit dissappointing.

We've found a HobbyStores in Southampton that has everything but the boom, but we are still boomless and the bom is 11mm, not the 12mm Trex450 size.

Still the HobbyStores website prohibits online ordering of Cypher spares. So - people of the UK: How on earth can you get spares for these helicopters??

If this goes on we'll have to sell the airframes and move onto Trex450 clones, because although they are more complex, noisier and spares cost more, at least you can buy the spares for them!!!!
In fact every single time I've waited for a Cypher 3D spare, parts from HongKong have arrived before. Ripmax really need to get their act together, their support is imperceptible.

Hey Globs, I've had similar problems ordering spares from Hobby Stores, although to be fair their hands are tied as its Ripmax who are stalling, not the retailers...it might be something to do with the imminent release of the carbon framed, all metal 'Cypher 2' which will replace the existing model. Ron's Heliproz South carry all the Cypher spares and they deliver within a week to the UK - give them a try. I have a boom in my spares box if you're really stuck, PM me if you want it :thumbup:
Warbird, my understanding is those upgrades are spares for the new Cypher, which is perhaps why they aren't available yet...glad to read you're flying out the Cypher, agree with you 100% about the thrill factor. Get a nice buzz every time I fly mine too :)
Spares aside, I'm loving this little heli - broke my inverted and flips cherry last week. I'm really struggling to get clean flips; its looks and feels like there is severe CCPM interaction at 90 and 270 degrees (this is just a guess, its probably my technique which is at fault :oops:) would be nice to hear about other's experiences with flipping this one.

Happy Flying this weekend guys!

Carl

[maddog57]

+1 on that pucker factor, Dru. It gets me every time !! Jim glad to hear you're doing good with your Cypher. I love this heli. Good parts supplies, easy to fix, flies great and she's pretty quick. I'm trying to work up the guts to try new things now that I'm feeling pretty comfy with hovering. New things being side and nose in. I take baby steps due to that pucker factor.

Think I've lost my first battery this past week. It's puffed a bit. I forgot to start the TX timer and took it too far , down to 6% :arggg: Usually I keep it to 20-25%, getting 6 min flights. All my packs are slightly rounded after each flight, but get flat and tight after cool down. Does anyone else experience this?

I mentioned in my last post about a clicking noise develped in my #2 Cypher on her maiden flight session. Found it was the one-way brg. was dry as a bone. don't think it was ever lubed before I bought it. Other than that, it's flown good for me "right outta the box". Haven't touched the GY401 at all, only adj'd gain in my TX.

Dru, I should have my Deal Extreme carbons this week. Looking forward to trying 'em out. I'm back on the OEM woodies til they come. The Align carbons took one too many hits and had to be retired. [ #2 came with Align Pro Woods that seem pretty good]. I'll let ya know how I like them.

Chris :thumbup:

[warbirdnut]

+1 on that pucker factor, Dru. It gets me every time !! Jim glad to hear you're doing good with your Cypher. I love this heli. Good parts supplies, easy to fix, flies great and she's pretty quick. I'm trying to work up the guts to try new things now that I'm feeling pretty comfy with hovering. New things being side and nose in. I take baby steps due to that pucker factor.


And with those baby steps she seems like a good heli to learn CP flying..


Think I've lost my first battery this past week. It's puffed a bit. I forgot to start the TX timer and took it too far , down to 6% :arggg: Usually I keep it to 20-25%, getting 6 min flights. All my packs are slightly rounded after each flight, but get flat and tight after cool down. Does anyone else experience this?

Not sure what you mean by the %.. My understanding of the 11.1 packs is at about 9 volts you need to shut down..

I have had no puffing of the pack and it's a cheapo 2200 from Nitroplanes..

What is the esc supposed to do when it's low? All I've noticed is that after running a few minutes when I go to take off again instead of powering up it makes some tones then fires up after a couple of tries... Not clear what that means.... I need one of those lipo led warning lights...

I am thinking of trying two 1000-1200mah 15c packs or similar wired together.. By my calculations this may be lighter by quite a bit and shorter in length for the CG issue than a single large 20 or 25c pack...


I mentioned in my last post about a clicking noise develped in my #2 Cypher on her maiden flight session. Found it was the one-way brg. was dry as a bone. don't think it was ever lubed before I bought it.


Where to apply lube to this and what kind?

Any other places that should be lubed and any particular kind of lube?

Jim

[Vechlor]

warbirdnut, the lube talks are back on page 26 (http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=118662&highlight=lube&page=26) ;) I think we covered just about everything there is in this great thread, that might be one of the reasons it's starting to slow down. Anyway, give the search tool a try, might find something we covered already. :thumbup:

As for the esc, it has a low-power cut off, it won't let you discharge the lipo, you can hear and feel the heli losing power slowly indicating it is time to land. I have two batts starting to puff and one still going strong. I've had them for about 7 months with a few dozen flights. My dad bought some of those 2200mah zippy packs, he really likes them, they don't get too hot and haven't puffed up, I might pick up a few.

[maddog57]

Jim, Vechlor is right, although I can't quote the page. Good job Vech !! I lube the one-way brg. every time it comes out for a main shaft change. I see no other way to oil it without removing it, cuz it's packed tightly in there. Also, I lube all other brgs. about every other flight session. Learned it the hard way. Very important !! Swash, tail shaft, main shaft, motor brgs. All need oil. I use a high speed pump brg. oil called "ProLube" It's clingy so it won't be flung off at higher RPM's, but light enough to penetrate. I'm sure the guys here will tell you what thet use. The bottle has a spout tube, I just stick it in the one-way and apply 2-3 drops, then slowly spin the main gear a bunch of time to distribute the oil. The other brgs., I put a drop between the inner and outter races and slowly spin them . Also the main shaft and guide pins need some..

Batt. drain %'s ... They start at 100% charge. Try not to drain them below 20% charge, which for my CellPro 2200mah 25C's it's about 3.7v per cell after 6min. flights. Hope that explains it better.

ESC... as Vechlor said, it has a low volt cut-out, though even taking my one batt. down to 6% [3.2 volts] it never did cut out. Don't know what the cut-out point is. I've never been able to find much spec data on this ESC. I haven't had one problem with the stock ESC, and it does get pretty warm after 6 batteries.

Can't tell you much as far as using 2 batt. in series. Our Cyphers have limited room for them.

Had a close call today on the first pack. Spooled it up, lifted 'er off and did my first series of piros!!!! Four to be exact before Cypher took off to the left and up !!!! Don't know how i saved her, but it was amazing to see, LOL !!!! Put 'er down ASAP, to find the set screw locking the tail hub to the tail shaft must not have been lock-tited and was gone. Decided to call it an Omen and a day, seeing's how the thunder boomers and rain were only minutes away. Wish I could've had the "save" on video to post. I'm so proud and surprised.

Chris :thumbup:

[warbirdnut]

Good for you Chris... Hate to see one crash...

I'll check into the lube info....

Amazing how stable she is in hover... I can't even tell if it needs any trim...

Still seeking longer flight times..

[blvdbuzzard]

I have been doing pretty well. I have been running only 2 batts a week. So I fly very little. It does get flown more when I go to the field. I just get home to late and by the time I get the stuff done around the house, it is to dark to fly :(

Mine is going strong. I have not tried to plant it for a Cypher tree.

Glad every one is doing well too. Good save Chris. Sometimes it is better to let your fingers do it without thinking then try to think your way through a save.


Dru.

[warbirdnut]

Dru, you need to get in a flight or two before doing all those chores.. You deserve a break! ;)

I am only on flight 6 now (counting one charge as one flight) takes forever to charge up..

Anyway I noticed that during my hovering work she has a tendency to bounce up and down... Now that's me doing that but also seems to require a lot of collective adjustments.. Is that normal?

Sometimes I just set the CP and then at some point Cypher will suddenly lose a lot of altitude quick..or sometimes just jumps higher.. Wondering what causes that... wind... air temp... head speed..setup?

Jim

[Globs]

Wind can cause that, try it on a very calm day to see if it stops..

[maddog57]

Jim, what are your pitch and throttle curves at in normal mode? I have -3 -1 0 +5 +10 pitch and 0 50 80 90 100 for throttle. When I was running lower head speeds and a lower pitch curve, from center stick thru full stick, I had that "balloon effect" and it was hard to hover in one spot. Had to do alot of dancing with the left stick. Wasn't very good to learn that way. Since going to the current curves, it's settled out allot and is much easier to hover, any up/down left/right is from my thumbs. It will have a natural tendency to lift when moving left or aft... drop when going right or forward. Nature of the beast !! I think it's allot of trial and error to find what works best on your Cypher. Hope this helps.

Chris:thumbup:

[warbirdnut]

Thanks for the ideas guys..

I'm going to try a some different things...I had been trying to keep the head speed a little low to maximize flight time, with a curve similar to Finless but maxing out at around 95% throttle.. Now I made it a little flatter at the top so it gets more even throttle above zero pitch... My pitch is around -5 to +10 in normal...

Only on flight 6 so it's a work in progress....

I am looking to try two 1600mah packs so, 3s2p with a total of 3200 mah... The overall length is shorter than a standard 2200 3s1p and weight increase should be minimal... and my esc is mounted in the rear under the receiver, spaced and shielded..for better cooling and weight distribution.. Should be interesting ...

Jim

[maddog57]

Jim let us know how the two batts in series works for you. I'm very interested in longer flight times too. I get 6 min with my 2200 25C's. Weight is a big concern cuz Cypher tends to be nose heavy.

Helis are truely a challenge. I had no idea there is so much to it. I'm always tweaking and looking to improve mine. Have had allot of help from all on this thread. I like to cruise thru the "New Posts" section on The Freak. Can find some good info there. I've been into this for app. a year now, and laugh when I think of how green I was in the beginning. I ended last summer in disgust from not being able to keep it in the air more than 3 to 5 sec or so, leading to a crash !!! Every time !! I put it away and concentrated on the sim. Big help there. Now , I'm far from even being called a pilot, but am mastering the hover and starting to work on the other orientations. Still haven't gone into idle-up yet. Guess I'm too chicken, but am working up the nerve.

Hope everyone is getting stick time. Dru you should fly your packs out and THEN do your chores. You know... priorities {being our helis LOL}. I need more time too.


Chris :thumbup:

[warbirdnut]

Will do..

The two packs would be wired in parallel not series... Series would double the voltage and fry the ESC.. Also the two 1600 packs are each shorter than a 2200 pack so this brings the weight in closer to the CG and minimizes the nose heavy problem... Also my ESC is in the rear not the nose which also off sets the problem...

I have found that for basic hover work lowering the throttle max can help the battery last longer, this does make the ESC work harder but with my esc heat sink hanging out in open air it seems to run pretty cool... Right now with some heavy training gear on her she runs for over 6 minutes...

Jim

[maddog57]

I stand corrected, parellel is right. :arggg:

Chris :thumbup:

[Ah Clem]

There were two guys doing 3D with Cyphers at the Rose Bowl this evening.

I felt left out because I brought the Trex.

Next time-the Cypher comes out!

[Globs]

My Cypher is quite old, the ESC heatsink is quite long with very thick fins. As usual it gets pretty warm but has never cut out on me.

Two of my friends have recently bought Cyphers that have similar but new ESC design. The heatsink is squarer and has thin fins. We had one cut out after 2 minutes of hover last week so after that he strapped it to a bench and ran it up - at 65degC it cut out.
Same with a second test run.

He got it replaced, so we tried again today, and before we tried it we tried another new Cypher, and after 2 minutes the ESC cuts out on that too.

So we now try the new (third) ESC - I hovered it for 2 minutes about 12" off the grass and sure enough - down it came - ESC overheat.

All three new ESCs have now failed at 2 minutes into a gentle hover, in two different machines, overheating and reseting in flight. Actually as the 3rd one died it revved up on its own on the ground - but the pitch was down so nothing happened.

In the same hour that those three new ESCs failed after 2 minutes, I flew my old Cypher for a 10 minute flight - no problems at all. So the conclusion is that there is a severe quality control issue with the new Cypher ESCs and they are all doomed to drop out of the sky after about two minutes. Not of merchantable quality.

All ESCs tested had the top heatshrink removed and were mounted at the front on top - just like my old ESC that worked perfectly.
Not sure what to do - do they take the whole heli back - or try endless bad ESCs until the end of the year?

What do you think?