New 550 flyer

[flag8r77]

Hello all, just got a new 550 kit today! Couple of questions...

-Running the Scorpion 4020-1100, is the motor spacer from helidaddy required?

-Will be using 6S 5000mah lipos, CC85 ESC. What pinions should I use? Is 15 overkill?

Thanks in advance for all my questions.


(If you see duplicate questions on that other site, please ignore them!!!)

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

Hello all, just got a new 550 kit today! Couple of questions...

-Running the Scorpion 4020-1100, is the motor spacer from helidaddy required?
Yes and Heli Direct sells one too. http://www.helidirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=38_568_690&products_id=9770


[/QUOTE]

[Foxden]

-Running the Scorpion 4020-1100,

What pinions should I use? Is 15 overkill?

Yes the 15 will be a bit too much, my calc's put that HS at over 2600, the 14T should put you right around 2400

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

Yes the 15 will be a bit too much, my calc's put that HS at over 2600, the 14T should put you right around 2400

That sounds about right. The 13T pinion puts me at 2200 after 2 minutes into the flight.

[Al Austria]

Typically, your target headspeed should be about 2300 RPM in this size electric. If you want to run the ESC in fixed end point mode with throttle curves, 14T should be perfect. If you plan on running one of the Castle's governor modes, you'll need a 15T.

I took Bobby Smith's advice and tried Gov High mode with my CC110HV. The setup has you gearing the machine 300 RPM above your target headspeed at 100% throttle(so gear for 2600RPM for 2300RPM). You'll end up having to run between 50% and 60% for your idle-up throttle curve. The latest CC software actually has a cool tool that has you enter your helicopter's gearing and 3 different target headspeeds, and provides the appropriate throttle % to run your curves at. Also make you sure your throttle is calibrated to your ESC.

This was the first time I ever tried Castle's governor mode and this mothod worked FLAWLESS for me. I ended up increasing the software provided values by 1% each and my headspeed felt perfect. My idle-up throttle curve is 55%(2300RPM) straight accross and the headspeed is very consistent throughout a 4 minute 3D routine. My thoughts are the high gearing gives enough headroom for the CC Gov to compensate for your packs voltage drop at the end of a flight. This setup yields a much more consistent headspeed throughout a flight than a standard throttle curve and the whole power system seems to run more efficiently overall. No more high power in the beginning of a flight and slow decline toward the end. I'm convinced this is the way to go with the Castle ESC's.

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

Al do you have any Etree graphs?

Scorpion 4020-1100 13T pinion
Castle Phoenix-125
Gov mode high
65% Throttle flat line
6s 25C 5000 Outrage Lipo

I may try a 14T pinion as I have one sitting right next to me, but I would need to see a graph before I would attempt a 15. Your head speed must be screaming if your flight time is 4 minutes of hard 3D. I'm getting 4:45 pretty easy.

I may just have to put my 14T on it and play with the Castle software and see where I end up.

Basically is what your saying is give the Castle ESC more head room to work more efficiently?

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77604&stc=1&d=1232317108

[Foxden]

Al,

Good point, I was looking at the 15T and the math and the numbers keep comming up over 2600 but as you mentioned Gov and 2300-2400 is perfect for this little Tasmainian Devil :YeaBaby:

[Jamesppp]

Al,

Good point, I was looking at the 15T and the math and the numbers keep comming up over 2600 but as you mentioned Gov and 2300-2400 is perfect for this little Tasmainian Devil :YeaBaby:


Since he has an 1100kv motor the headspeed with a 15t pinion on 6S at 90% effieciency is:

(22.2v)(1100kv)= 24420 24420/(140t/15t) = 2616rpm, (2616)(90%eff)= 2355rpm

Looks like it would take all of the 15t or more to get a governed 2300 with the lower kv motor,1100kv

You guys would laugh at me, Im flying mine at 1980-2050rpm, and I think it is fast.:smokin: It will roll it a split second and I can get long flight time. I should have used an 1100kv myself...but what the hell, Im happy:YeaBaby:

[Jamesppp]

[quote=Al Austria;1119232].

snip'. The latest CC software actually has a cool tool that has you enter your helicopter's gearing and 3 different target headspeeds, and provides the appropriate throttle % to run your curves at. Also make you sure your throttle is calibrated to your ESC.snip'


Al, an email from Castle yesterday said there is a bug in the set rpm gov and that the work around is to set only 2 different headspeeds total. Like choose 2200 for normal and 2300 for both idle 1 and idle 2. You still need to use the 100 or above 99 reference value for the curve setting for idle 2 even thought the speed setting is the same

If you are not having any problems with 3 values that is even better but he did say that the bug was happening the the values of the set speeds were too far apart..he didnt elaborate on how far apart is too far.

I set mine up last night and hope to try it this weekend.

Jimmy

[Al Austria]

LITHIUMSTATIC, sorry no graphs. I can't say that it is in fact more efficient, but I believe your headspeed would be more consistent throughout your battery's usable capacity. Battery/ESC/and motor temps are also relatively cool. According to my hand, the battery isn't getting above 110-115F. As for flight time, I pulled just under 3400 mAh in my 2nd flight video and pulling around 3600 mAh in subsequent(harder) flights after 4 minutes, so I could get slightly longer flight times.

Jamesppp, I actually ran the numbers myself and got the same exact value. With the same efficiency, 13T I think yielded only around 2050RPM and 14T yielded around 2200.

I'm also running Gov High mode, not Set RPM. After entering the heli's gearing and your desired headspeeds, the tool in the software gives you values to plug into your throttle curves(in your radio) when using Gov High mode. When you use Set RPM mode all you have to do is plug in your headspeeds. I went with Gov High as that is all Bobby uses, and it has always worked great for him. The values I got are as follows:

RPM - % rounded up
2000 - 42.5%(Normal)
2150 - 49.0%(Idle-Up 1)
2300 - 54.0%(Idle-Up 2)

[Jamesppp]

I see. So you select Gov High, enter the gearing/motor data then enter the desired headspeeds in the 3 text windows like you would do for Set Rpm mode? or do you enter the desired headspeed on the page thet you enter the motor/gear data on.

I setup Set RPM mode last night so I didnt see where it gives you the reference values to enter into tout Tx.

I wish I could open the Castle Link software here at work and play with it without connecting a controller up...maybe i could get it right

Thanks

[LITHIUMSTATIC]

I still like the Jive/Jazz gov way more than the CC stuff. Set it and fly. The Jazz doesn't like the Texas heat... haven't tried a Jive as they are stupid expensive.

Oh well.... I'll experiment next time I fly and see what the 14 does. I'm happy with the 13T at this point, but am always open to improvments.

Al, when you can, buy an Eagletree man. It really is a valuable tool and well worth the money.

[Al Austria]

So you select Gov High, enter the gearing/motor data then enter the desired headspeeds in the 3 text windows like you would do for Set Rpm mode?


Exactly, the values will then be shown next to the 3 text windows.

I setup Set RPM mode last night so I didnt see where it gives you the reference values to enter into tout Tx.

The values won't appear in Set RPM mode. From where you are right now, you should be able to change the throttle type to High Gov and the values you need to enter into your throttle curves should show up.

LITHIUMSTATIC, try it! I have no complaints about the CC Gov modes, and I've flown enough Jazz setups to know what they are all about. High Gov is working fantastic for me!

[Jamesppp]

All right, if I can change the mode to high mode, enter the values in my TX and beat the rain coming in, Ill try it after work. Is default Gov Gain OK for starters?

[Foxden]

Same math Jim, but I forgot to figure in the 90% effieciency :DOH

[Al Austria]

Jamesppp, the default gov gain is what I'm using and its working great.

[Zaaaguy72]

The build almost done yet?

[aliboy]

Al Austria, when you are hovering/flying in gov. high mode, is your esc LED blinking all the time. Mine is, and I'm wondering if I haven't geared right. Maybe I should go up a pinion to give more headroom for the gov? I'm using the 4020-1390 on 6s, 11T, but the principle should be the same. I'm still not getting great results in Gov. high mode, and the faster headspeeds seem to be worse, so I'm wondering if I'm maxing out the gov.

Thanks, Al

[wren1702]

Blinking is fine, it goes solid when at full throttle. (so to speak)

[aliboy]

Thanks Wren. Working from a HS calculator, I actually seem to have more "headroom" than AlAustria, given my target HS. I think this means another trip back to heli-fixed-endpoints to try and get to the bottom of this.

Al

[creightoncarr]

I'm using the Jive 85+HV on 8S with the 4025-890. Awesome speed controller and the governor is probably the best out there for electrics. Without a heat sink it got warm, but I installed some little memory chip heat sinks on the metal plate on the controller and the temps now are never above 85 degrees F. I'm sure they will rise some come summer, but I'm confident the heat sinks will be up to the task.

[Jamesppp]

Al Austria, when you are hovering/flying in gov. high mode, is your esc LED blinking all the time. Mine is, and I'm wondering if I haven't geared right. Maybe I should go up a pinion to give more headroom for the gov? I'm using the 4020-1390 on 6s, 11T, but the principle should be the same. I'm still not getting great results in Gov. high mode, and the faster headspeeds seem to be worse, so I'm wondering if I'm maxing out the gov.

Thanks, Al


Al, what headspeed are you shooting for? The max headspeed with your setup at 90% efficiency would be 2182rpms. The max that you could govern and retain some headroom is only about 1854rpms at 85% of the 2182. even if 10% headroom was enough you would get 1964rpms as the highest governable headspeed with 11t

[Al Austria]

Thanks Wren. Working from a HS calculator, I actually seem to have more "headroom" than AlAustria, given my target HS. I think this means another trip back to heli-fixed-endpoints to try and get to the bottom of this.

Al

Actually, I just ran the numbers and at 90% efficiency your theoretical headspeed would only be 2182 RPM. If your target headspeed is 2300, you'll run out of headroom real quick. Bump it up to 12T and then see how it does.

[edit]

I just noticed that Jamesppp already did the math! Well, at the very least I verified his numbers...:D

[aliboy]

Thanks for the replies guys. Originally I thought the same when I put the numbers into a HS calculator, but Ade from TrexTuning has the exact same set-up as me and was reporting ungoverned headspeeds of just over 2300. What the actual efficiency is who knows, as 90% is just a ball park figure, depending on motor, esc and battery efficiency. I was aiming for 2100 on the 11T, which is about 91% of max acheivable HS (I know its supposed to be 85%, but I'm getting these tail kicks just hovering). Of course, using the same criteria, than Al A's max HS would also be much higher...Hmmm.

I suppose the first thing to do is to test I'm actually getting 2300 ungoverened, if not, then I'll go up to a 12T. Thanks for the advice,

Al

[trextuning]

headspeed calculators are always a 'best guess'. Motor kv's can vary quite a bit from the specification and depending on ESC used you can get quite varied results.

Best to try it, see what you get, if not right bump up a pinion.