MA, here's an advice.

[paulw1283]

I just bought a Spectra G gasser and I had to print tons of pages from the website - the instruction manual, drawings, operator guides...

I just wonder why can't MA provide us with printed instructions for a $1000 kit to save us the trouble? Surely it cannot be to save trees because we still have to print it ourselves anyway. Even worse, many people will print on only one side of a sheet, leading to more waste. Any sane person would not try to rely on a computer screen for such a long project.

I had to go through the frustration of setting up my printer and calculating, and reorganizing 100 + sheets simply because I didn't want to print 200 pages on 200 sheets. (my printer doesn't have the double sided print option, so I had to print it manually on both side, talk about organization and calculating and planning!) Or else more paper will be wasted.

So why can't MA just provide us with the professional, mass produced, printed manuals? We are already spending $1000 + for the kit, that's not too much to ask is it? Even my $200 Canon has one.

Also, the drawings had no page number. In addition, the drawing numbering system was extremely confusing and disordered, after some pages fell out and had to be put back in. How about just use 1, 2, 3, 4 ...999, 1000? That way, when MA accidentally placed "Complete Drawing 5" before "5 C" on the website, at least we know it's wrong.

[WayneBrown]

I just bought a Spectra G gasser and I had to print tons of pages from the website - the instruction manual, drawings, operator guides...

I just wonder why can't MA provide us with printed instructions for a $1000 kit to save us the trouble? Surely it cannot be to save trees because we still have to print it ourselves anyway. Even worse, many people will print on only one side of a sheet, leading to more waste. Any sane person would not try to rely on a computer screen for such a long project.

I had to go through the frustration of setting up my printer and calculating, and reorganizing 100 + sheets simply because I didn't want to print 200 pages on 200 sheets. (my printer doesn't have the double sided print option, so I had to print it manually on both side, talk about organization and calculating and planning!) Or else more paper will be wasted.

So why can't MA just provide us with the professional, mass produced, printed manuals? We are already spending $1000 + for the kit, that's not too much to ask is it? Even my $200 Canon has one.

Also, the drawings had no page number. In addition, the drawing numbering system was extremely confusing and disordered, after some pages fell out and had to be put back in. How about just use 1, 2, 3, 4 ...999, 1000?
It's a hard call to make, especially now with most taking their laptop pc's to events, wireless internet around the house, and the majority of new purchasers already being computer savvy.
I for one, really enjoyed not having to flip thru page after page, just click the mouse and end up where I left off.
As for the pages not being numbered.. You have to choose that option from your printer's menu. All pages included in the .pdf file had numbers assigned.
There were obviously a large number of hours put into providing a complete manual, with a number of the assembly steps being more clear than the previous 'print' versions.
compared to what was, this is a quantum leap forward, and I hope they never go back..

[paulw1283]

Laptops are portable alright, but still not as convenient as papers.

Not everyone likes to stare at a screen for that long, especially after a long day at work. It's hard on the eyes and is hard to concentrate. That's why paper novels, magazines, and novels still dominate their electronic counterparts by a LONG shot.

[ClayK]

Laptops are portable alright, but still not as convenient as papers.

Not everyone likes to stare at a screen for that long, especially after a long day at work. It's hard on the eyes and is hard to concentrate. That's why paper novels, magazines, and novels still dominate their electronic counterparts by a LONG shot.

Suggest searching on the internet for IETM (Interactive Electronic Technical Manual). I'm the IETM Manager for the MK46 program and the Senior Representative/Configuration Manager for the EFV IETM program.

Paper manuals are a thing of the past. This is my career, so I'm pretty up on the area. An Adobe Acrobat manual is the bottom of the barrel in IETM Classes, but it's still better than paper. Using a fully functional class 4 or class 5 is tons better than a digital page turner (Acrobat). Sure, you can print the manual from your computer if you want. Personally, I applaud MA for coming into the 21st century. Changes/updates/additions are significantly easier with ETM's over their paper counterparts.

DOD and other manufacturers have moved to ETM's and IETM's, why not helicopters?

[Alfred]

Paul
3 weeks ago I would have agreed with you..then I bought a Stratus with PDF manual.
I use PC's everyday..just about all day long and feel the same.
You do get sick of looking at the screen and don't want the same when you come home.

But the Stratus manual is an eye opener.
As they say: Pictures speak a thousand words.
Lots in the manual is clarified by showing well taken photos.
Wonder where a part goes or what it looks like? punch in the part number and presto, you have instant access of all the locations and photos the part has been mentioned.
Learn how to use your keys (left/right, up/down) arrow and you would be amazed as how fast you can move through the manual....a lot faster then I could do with a hard copy.
It also gives them the ability to update the manual fast for either better ways of building or due to upgraded parts since the 1st release.
Now all you have to do is download the latest version from their Website and you have the latest Version availeble.
I think that the Pros now outweight the Cons for the electronic variety.

[Ray Fernandez]

I am with Paul. I like the manual concept. Call me an old foggie but I just think it to be more simple for me. I like being around computers too but when it comes down to building model helis, I wouldn't mind using the good 'ole manuals.

Maybe MA could consider placing a printed manual with future kits.

Just my opinion. :D

[paulw1283]

I am a electrical engineering major. I like computers...for games, chat, short news read, or mandator work.

But I think helicopter building should be an experience itself. I like the convenience of a paper where I can browse through it any time or anywhere, whether it's "preplanning" beforehand or bringing the manual to the field to ask the pros for questions.

Of course, MA might be trying to enter the "21st century". But remember, we are still in the EARLY part of the 21st century. Computer is great for many things. But paper still rules when it comes to long reading that requires concentration.

And since obviously a significant number of people prefer paper, (40% so far in this thread, and far more for the general population, considering polls shows that people are willing to pay twice the subscription price for paper magazines to online), it seems good business to spend an extra $1 and provide the paper manuals for a $1000 product.

[DebianDog]

Yep. I LOVE a good PDF but they should offer a printed manual. I doubt $1 would cover it :wink:

As far as the DOD and everyone else going electronic... I am with the ex-general I saw speak the other day. As soon as someone uses a large EMP device against our forces we are screwed. Sorry for the side bar but as an ex-tank commander I cannot imagine using a laptop in the field to do maintenance on my tank. Seems stupid.

[DavidH]

The reason MA went to the manuals on CD. Yes it did lower the cost of the kits using a CD manual instead of a paper manual. But another reason is they got many requests from customers to put the manual on a CD instead of the old style paper manual and drawings. There is also a couple more companies now using a CD or DVD for the instructions I believe. So as someone mentioned , MA moved into the 21st century with the CD instructions.
Yes a paper manual does cost more than a $1. If you want a paper manual, take the CD to Kinko's or some other print shop. They can turn you one out in about 10 mins. Be sure to ask the price for doing it, before you make up your mind.

David

[GM1]

I also REALLY liked being able to take a picture in the manual and blow it up to 200% in my laptop so I could get a close look at the area I was working in and actually see what was there.
Gordie

[GM1]

Dan,
If you get that kind of an EMP, a printed manual will be the least of your worries.
Gordie

[Janek]

If your want a printed manual, get a Raptor, you'll soon see just how crap printed manuals can be :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[pilotError]

I too like printed manuals, but in this case (my experience with building a pair of stratus') the printed manuals needed to be supplemented with the on-line version.

I am a computer guy by profession and have access to some pretty high end stuff. When it comes to the black bolts on the black carbon fiber frames, you can't make out what goes where when you print it out. I tried to lighten up a few pages, but in the end it didn't really work. The photos in the PDF are very clear and much easier to decipher when doing the build.

I'm not all for having a laptop sitting next to me during the build, but in this case I needed to on certain steps. It certainly made life a little easier.

Mike...

[ClayK]

Tanks, Strykers, EFV's, V-22, civilian aircraft, etc all going to IETM's. Logistically speaking, it's light years ahead of paper manuals. Data integrity, configuration management, technical updates, usage messages, storage requirements; millions of reasons why soft copies are better than paper. Most "old school" maintainers in the Fleet are having a learning curve getting use to a manual on a laptop, but they are getting use to it. They complain sometimes, but there are tradeoffs. Graphics can be zoomed, paper can be printed if desired, space savings, etc etc. Can you imagine doing a "Find" on a paper manual for all the occurrences of "carburetor"?

Of course, if an EMP were to go off, the last thing on our mind should be, how do I open the technical manual to fix this? More than just the tech mans would be down. Sure, there are times I like to have the paper in my hand, but rarely. I use to be the same way. After working in maintenance support engineering for the last 6 years, I would not go back to paper.

Trust me, ensuring technical content accuracy is the primary concern. Cost reduction is also a factor. If 1000 kits were sold and only 400 people printed the manuals, 600 didn't. The paper savings is extraordinary in just that example. Imagine the warehouse space to store just 1000 paper manuals? Imagine the logistics required for ensuring delivery of said manuals versus the CD? Got to update the paper manual? I'm bringing some of my work to Chatti, I'll be happy to show anyone the capabilities of some of the ETM's being produced now, Adobe was just a stepping point. Electronic Manuals have it, so many use case studies can't be wrong.

If you want some light reading :) I included an article link (http://www.net1hosting.com/downloads/Interactive%20Electronic%20Technical%20Manuals.doc ) one of my team members wrote.

[DavidH]

When it comes to the black bolts on the black carbon fiber frames, you can't make out what goes where when you print it out.

Yes and if there was a printed manual in the kits. The pictures like on the CD would not be in the manual. I have a printed manual that was sent with my Tempest kits when I got them. This was one of the first Tempest kits and the CD's had not been made. The manual I have is text only. No drawings or pictures.
You can do so much more with a CD than with print. MA is planning in the future to even add short video clips on build techniques.

David

[spork]

The only thing I don't want to go digital is my toilet paper. Other than that I'd just as soon have everything on my laptop.

RC

[ClayK]

Good news though....

HOME STRETCH – After 10 years of development, a production decision is near for the U.S. Marine Corps’ next-generation amphibious assault vehicle. Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle (EFV) prototypes are undergoing an independent operational assessment that should lead to low-rate initial production approval by the Pentagon’s Defense Acquisition Board in December. The 78,000-lb. armored vehicle has overcome design challenges, including the ability to achieve high water speed and reconfigure itself in less than two min. into a tracked infantry fighting vehicle for land operations. When launched from an amphibious ship 20-25 naut. mi. offshore, the EFV will hydroplane across water at 25 kt. The vehicle is powered by a 12-cylinder, 2,700-hp. diesel engine from Germany’s MTU and twin 23-in. –dia. water jets from Honeywell.
The EFV can move ashore without stopping and reach land speeds of 45 mph. Developed by General Dynamics Amphibious Systems, the EFV has a crew of three and carries a rifle squad of 17. It shoots on the move with a stabilized 30mm. automatic chain gun and 7.62mm. coaxial machine gun mounted in a 360-deg. rotating turret. The first vehicles will undergo nine months of tests in 2009-10. Initial operational capability is slated for late 2010. The Marine Corps plans to buy 1,013 EFVs. (Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology)

[DebianDog]

78,000 lbs and only a 30mm gun? Well at least it floats. :rolling You Marine guys seems to like that. I myself prefer 64 tons of steel with a 120mm gun (http://www.freedesktopwallpapers.net/military/M1A1-Abrams.jpg)

Anyway geting back on topic... if that thing breaks in the water I would love to see you Jarheads break out a laptop to "read the manual". ;)

[X]

My work station for the Stratus is now in my office. :arggg: I guess soon or later MA will not even going to provide $1 disc manual. We have to get it online. :bomb: I don't like that. Simple is best to me.
x

[ClayK]

78,000 lbs and only a 30mm gun? Well at least it floats. :rolling You Marine guys seems to like that. I myself prefer 64 tons of steel with a 120mm gun (http://www.freedesktopwallpapers.net/military/M1A1-Abrams.jpg)

Anyway geting back on topic... if that thing breaks in the water I would love to see you Jarheads break out a laptop to "read the manual". ;)

Not meant to be a main battle tank, meant to be a troop carrier. Remember, GD makes the tank too. The M1 is a big girl, 69.5 tons curbweight, but then again, the M1 can't float or do 35+ knots on the water :)

Check her out in action (http://www.efv.usmc.mil/videos/move-water.wmv). WARNING: Don't attempt with dialup

Actually, training should handle general operations under usual circumstances. Should she break down in the water, there are operations under unusual circumstances that would dictate what to do. Technically speaking, the manual shouldn't be required if any of the above isn't second nature as the vehicle software does most of the work (You have no idea how hard I pushed the engineers to put a "GO TO WAR" button in). Should they have to rely on manual procedures, the laptop boots up fairly quickly and will provide them with a corrective action(s) within 4 minutes. We don't expect them to use the manual on a daily basis to perform fundamental operations or maintenance procedures.

Don't think that MA should provide software guided operational procedures, but perhaps fault isolation/troubleshooting trees navigate by root cause/solution would be nice, but expensive.

Pretty soon, paper will be a thing of the past. It's difficult to get past it, believe me I know, but it will happen. That being said, do I have my Spectra manual printed? Yes. Do I have drawings printed? Yes. All the manuals and associated part information is printed for the Spectra and in a binder. Do I use it? Only at the field if I don't have a laptop.

[Matt Lowdermilk]

I love have "ALL" of my manuals on my laptop. But I hate trying to edit them with notes.

[Alfred]

Unfortunatly MA missed to use the power of electronic Manual by not updating their Manuals to the latest kit version yet.
My Stratus came with the Modified Front Framedoublers but the manual neither reflected the change in pictures nor did it update the parts list and description.
The On Line Manual was the same as my disk...it definitly should have been updated.
Maybe we the Users can help MA by updating the Manual and sending it to them so they can pick out the parts they agree with?
It actually could end up being the best manuals seen yet, if MA invites their Customers to help in updating them.

[paulw1283]

is it true that MA helicopter have a lot more nuts and bolts than other manufactureres'?

[WayneBrown]

is it true that MA helicopter have a lot more nuts and bolts than other manufactureres'?
They only use whats needed to secure the parts, I don't know the exact number, nor do I know the number of other manufacturers' products..
I'm not sure I understand what you are looking to find out??

[carey shurley]

as soon as the new fuel tank is available, the manual will be updated to include the recent changes. Their arrival has taken longer than anybody expected.