Avant RC previews the Aurora Ultimate [Archive] - Page 4

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mevigavant

09-21-2006, 12:30 PM

Some of the parts are the same i.e bearing blocks, bottom plate, head, and mainshaft. Everything else is different.

Augusto

09-21-2006, 01:05 PM

Parts that are the same are the CCPM system, the Programmable head, the main shaft, the bearing blocks and spacers. the motor mount.

Other than that all carbon parts without exception are different, the whole drive train such as pinion, bell, clutch, main and constant drive gears, pickup gear, tailgears, torque tube system, tailcase, tail blade related mechanisms, sprag clutch system, main hubs, main sleeve, input and out shaft, tail output shaft, tailhub, bladegrips, fan, fanshroud, fanhub and too many more parts to list here are all new.

Augusto.

MD3DNT

09-24-2006, 05:08 AM

why no header tank on the aurora?

WillJames

09-24-2006, 06:43 AM

Probably because they are usign a Cline regulator or a pumped engine with a Fuel Magnet. No header tank needed. Header tanks are all but gone from 90 sized machines these days due to pumped or regulated motors coupled witht he fuel magnet which is fantastic.

bob00

09-24-2006, 10:28 AM

Header tank not needed because...

- as Will explained, the fuel magnet is the preferred way to go for pumped / regulated 90 sized motors

- the fuel tank is huge (22oz I think). I get 10 - 11 min per tank compared to 8 - 9 min I've grown accustomed to with other 90 sized helis. I find no need to carry the extra fuel

- rear mounted tank makes it easy to see how much fuel is left

One could be installed if wanted, but most will get by fine without it.

- Rob

Fabien

09-27-2006, 09:58 AM

Just to let everyone in France know.

There is no distributor selected for France yet so whoever told him this supposedly 1,400 euros price figure is completely off base. There is no reasoning with this kid so I simply ignore him and all his posts until a distributor for France is selected and he can talk to them.
As posted by Blars most european dealers have much lower pricing so why he can't wait until there is a french distributor before complaining about non-existent french prices is beyond me.

Augusto.

Hi Guys,

just a little note to explain you about sales in France. PLease do not see me here as Diamont reseller at all, i'm just talking as ordinar reseller.

We have great troubels about distributionship in France and some European countries. Big distributors take exclusivity on some products and then they want to earn money on htem, when reselling to local resellers ( shops), who will themself again earn money, and then you can add 19,6% of VAT in final.. This brings the prices very high, for example a Futaba 9351 servo is here in France and in GErmany at.. 186 EURO !!!! And i can see them at 88 Euro only in Honk Kong..

European market is a big headache, and it is much more easy to sell overseas for us ( as we can remove 19,6% VAT so it compsensates the amount of shipping) than to sell in Europe, as we have to include these famous 19,6% VAT in the prices, that we then have to gove to the VAT tax office..

This is why it is so hard for US products to be offered at good prices, this is not the fault from the manufacturers in US? but simply this is the bad economical system in Europe and the " diktat" of local big distributors here.. When you know that a GY611 is public price 449 Euro in France ( this is the price given by official Futaba importer), then you wll understand what i mean...

And this is why all of our products re nod sol with regular distribution channels, we sell direct to customer so they save easy 45% on the prices as there is no distributor / shop / customer channel but only manufacture -> customer channel.

Keep up the good work Augusto :)

BEst regards,

Fabien

BEst regards,
Fabien

tchavei

09-27-2006, 11:17 AM

for example a Futaba 9351 servo is here in France and in GErmany at.. 186 EURO !!!! And i can see them at 88 Euro only in Honk Kong..

...When you know that a GY611 is public price 449 Euro in France
Fabien

Hum... we live in different Europes then :roll:

In Germany you can get the original robbe/futaba 9351 servo around 95€ (thats 16% vat included) and a GY611 for around 350€... once again original Robbe/futaba. You can get better prices from the gray market aka imports from hongkong. No problem with those as long as you don't need warranty.

I can even tell you that you can get a robbe G3 5014 reciever for 219€ (21% vat included) thats 278$... at Ronlund the same reciever goes for 315$ so I wouldn't say Europe is a black pit. You just need to look close and know several languages :)

I hope Augusto will release the european dealer list soon so I can start looking for the best deal. Not all dealers have gone public about this.

Tony

PS - You are right. The "official" price given by futaba is 450€ for the end consumer so you resellers can keep your 40% profit. Its up to the dealers to cut down their margin to boost up their sales... I would rather sell 100 g3 recievers with a 30€ margin than 10 with a 100€ margin. But thats just me.

tchavei

09-27-2006, 11:36 AM

Btw...

"I'm getting very tired of hearing Europeans blame everything else except themselves for the prices they have to pay for anything."

I resent that! Now you are putting all europeans in the same bag?

Tony

Fabien

09-27-2006, 02:32 PM

HI,

you know, this price thing is a non end debate.
We could talk about it for years, this would not make things advance.

On one side people tend to say that distributors prices are too high. But if you ask a distributor why his prices for resellers are so high then he will explain you how a company with benefits, and you can not blame him to make money..
HE will say that if shops are not happy then they will make direct sales to customers. But beginners need shops to get advises and others. SO it is a vicious circle and nobody can help with that.

Then the shops will want to make money as well. Any shop in France will tell you that they will not sell a heli kit if they do not have at least a 1,7 margin on it.. And the worse is that they have taxes and rentals and charges to pay as well..

So on my side, i do not take any real position, i sell what i can sell at good prices and for other stuff i let customers ask to other shops. There is nothng worse than a customer calling you several times to get informations about a model like raptor and finally he tells you youhave too high price and he buys directly on Cyberheli or another website.. And then he comes in your shop to get the services he will not get on the internet..

This is money world, money rules, and everybody has to do with it. SOme have more luck or better adresses than others, but personally when aprice looks too high somewhere then i do not say anything and i search somewhere else..
Official french price for servos 9351 is realy 186 Euro, you can check on Avio and Tiger website in France, who is official distributor for Futaba.
They even will not sell to me futaba products as i do not have a shop with large enough glasses and becasue i can not make a full display of their products. I tried to tell them that i'm specialised in Helis and that my main occupation is manufacturing fuselages and canopies, so my place is a Workshop, not a display shop, but no way... And then they ask me not to buy somewhere else... LOL !!!

IN a perfect world i would say i would have no problems selling the Aurora even if we have the DIamont, as it is not same price helicotper so they are not challengers for each others, but in the real world, i would not be able to handle the money to make enough stock to have a good after sale spare parts services..
And no matter if i have a perfect customer support service and if i love what i do, only a big distributor has the money and the financial capacity to " push" a product on the market... SO we go back to initial point :)

I just hope that the Aurora distributor will have a god service for his customers :)

BEst regards,

Fabien

Fabien

09-27-2006, 02:41 PM

Huh guess now you know how people in the US feel that want the diamont with the distributor trying to sell them out of france..sucks but if you want it youll pay the price...my hypothesis is youre getting back doored by your distributor since augusto is taking huge measures to make the kit more than competitive.

Hi,

i forget to mention that when you buy something in US from France, you get a nice 19,6% VAT rebate, so you pay cheaper than people do in france... On a 1000 euro heli you save 196 euro, and on a 2000 stuff then you save up to 400 euro.. SO this balances well with the shipping fees to USA as you will basically pay the same price with shipping as a french customer without shiping fees :)

Problem in France is that for buying a heli in USA? you need to pay the following normaly when the shippment arrives to french customs:

4,7% custom taxes
15 - 25 Euro charged for customs work
19,6% VAT..

if you calculate, this is not so far away than the price announced in France that M3DNT said... SO no ripoff here, only french taxes :)
BEst regards,

Fabien

Augusto

09-28-2006, 04:23 AM

tchavei

09-28-2006, 06:05 AM

Fabien

09-28-2006, 04:01 PM

Fabian,

According to what you're saying if you buy something at $1000 in the US your cost to import it into your country is:

4,7% custom taxes = 1,047.00
15 - 25 Euro ($31.80)charged for customs work = $1,047.00 + $31.80 = $1,078.80
19,6% VAT = $1,078.80 x 1.196 = $1,290.24
If you add about $50 shipping to that: $1,290.24 + $50.00 = $1,340.24

So is $1,340.00 really the actual cost for the importer to bring it into France?

Augusto.

Hi Augusto,

it is a little harder than that in reality for French import:

HEre is a better explanation.

VAT is 19,6% in france. When a company buys goods for itself, then it can get refunded about VAT. But once you sell goods to end customers, then you have to make them pay the VAT, that you then redistribute to Tax Office.

So let's take an example of the terrible headache of importing a 1000 USD good to france ( i make some imports from HK as well and it is same headache lol).

1) Let's say i order One Heli to you. Price is 1000 Usd.
2) We have to define shipping fees ( 50 usd for a heli kit?)
3) I need to translate the manual in french, as in Europe each product must have the manual translated in the country language..
4) You ship the goods to me, i pay you 1050 USD, but i already loose money on the wire transfer fees and the currecny conversion by the bank..

5) Product arrives in france. You need normally to have 5 Proforma invoices with exact description and amount of the god contended. RC stuff are in the RC Toys section and are taxed at 4,7%.

6) Customs add 4,7% to the amount declared on the proforma invoice, they take between 5 and 25 euro fixed charges for the Customs work and paperwork, and then, they add 19,6% of VAT that you have to pay in advance to them to get your parcel ( With TNT shipping it is automatic, they pay in advance and you got to refund them once you get the parcel).

So i get the product in front of my door and i have to calculate real cost. I have advanced the VAT ont he product, BUT once i'll sell the product to the customer with my margin, then i will have to forget about the VAT i paid in advance and i'll charge the customer 19,6% VAT of the price he will pay ( with my margin included).

There are several ways to think about this stuff and actualy lot of shops who are not used to import make the mistake, in fact, to count twice the VAT. Normally, you must note take care of the VAT you pay to get the parcel from customs. YOu just pay it, and then each 3 monthes, when you make your VAT declaration, then you make the balance of the VAT you paid and the VAT you realy owe and the VAT tax office owes you if you bought something for the company ( milling machine, pens, print ink, tools for the workshop...)

BUt in the end, the customer pays 19,6% VAT to the shop who must give them back to the tax office.

Now let's continue with this heli.
I have paid 1050 usd + 4,7% + let's say 15 euro of fixed charges by customs and then 19,6% VAT. I MUST NOT take these 19,6% VAT in consideration about the price calculation for the customers, as i have to base my business on Excluded Vat prices and then only put VAT in the end of the chain. This is a bit complicated, but this isthe way it works..

SO i have a heli that costed me:

1050 + 4,7% = 1099,35

1099,35 + 15 euro charged then i have to convert the whole prices in euro. MOst of french importers and shops take a standard rate at the moment of 0,85 to keep a security on the USD fluctuation and about the currency exchanges charges from the bank..

SO not we go in Euro at:

1099,35 x 0,85 = 934, 45 EUro.

LEt's add fixed customs fees:

934, 45 + 15 = 949, 45 euro

OK now i have to advance VAT ont he price i paid, which is 19,6% ( 186,1 Euro) : 1135,55 Euro...

This is the cost of the heli to come.

BUT i have to take in consideration that this VAT i paid, it will be refunded by the customer largely when he will buy the heli, so i must keep for my prices calculations the price i paid WITHOUT VAT, or if i do not do that, then the custoemr will pay twice the VAT....

SO we got a 949,45 euro heli.

Now if i'm a shop, most of the shops in france want to have 1,72 margin from Excluded VAT price to final retail price including VAT ( not all, but some of them, and hopefully here there is no distributor involved).

So i go from 949,45 , make it multiplicated to 1,72, and got 1633, 05 EUro...

This price will include VAT of 19,6, which means that the shop really sold teh heli: 1633,05 euro less 19,6% VAT that will be given to tax office (320 euro aproximatively), and from these 320 euro i'll refund myself the VAT i advanced first when i received the heli from customs ( 186,1 euro). So i give really to tax office 320 - 186 euro approx ..

So i earned really :

1633 - 949,5 (heli price) - 186,1 (VAt i advanced to customs) - 320 (VAT charged to end customer that i pay to tax office) + 186,1 ( VAT i advanced that i'll get refunded by tax office.

363 EUro on the kit.

If you consider the time worked, the possible warranty exchanges for defectiuve parts, the electricity, the phone calls to order, the time spent to translate the manual, the promotion in magazines and much more things like sponsorship, then it is not so much money earned compared to the taxes you will pay on your company revenues in end of year, and the charges like shop rental, your work and all charges of a company.

This is why some manufacturer do not have distributors in some countris, but only exclusive resellers. It helps to save the additional marginand charges of a distributor before going in teh shops.

If for example we would like to have the heli at 1000 usd in France, then the manufacturer price to the shops would have to be really low to allow the shop to earn money and the customer to getsame price as in the US.

A big distributor will need to earn around 30 / 50% before seling to shops.. SO imagine the final retail price. This explainsthe high prices of Futaba stuff in France for example.

I took the choice to make only direct sales or direct import so have faire prics to my customers. With Uwe, we sell together our helicotper direct to customers ( i'm not his reseller, i'm his partner).

If you go in my eshop then you can see i virtually have nothing, only APlus, SJM and Diamont. Off course i would love to sell Avant helicopters, but i'm a small shop , i am not a big distributor, and a manufacturer in foreign country will prefer to sell large quantities which is totally normal, and there, only a big distributor can hancle that kind of stuff, and you know what happens to the prices then.

On my side, i would say that the best for Augusto would to make direct shipings from the USA to the customers, as when a end customer orders from internet, if he has not a copany, sometimes >Customs " forget " to tax the goods, and then if Augusto can find some partners shops for just the spare parts then it can be easier to manage.

Or he must locate some high sellers shops in the countries he wants to deserve and sell direct to shops, not to distributor first, and set a retail prices with them.

All tis is marketing and business strategy, the investments to make a helicotpers are phenomenals and much beyond what you could imagine ( 100 000 euro for the Diamont for example..) so imagine for a massive production helicotper.

If one gear is 30 usd, the price to make the mold for it is more than 1500 usd so you need to sell xxxxx of them before you earn money. If you count the parts in a helicopters, then youc an understand that for it's price range, the Aurora is, i think, the best value you can find as it combines nice designs, strong frame structure, minimum number of parts, and very well choosen materials, which indicate that a very large effort has been brought to combine efficiency, reliability, and good ratio price/quality.

The Diamont is 100% Alu /Carbon and they are expensive, so these helis can not be compared and on my side i do not care of who makes what, i love helicopters, and even if i work with Uwe on the Diamont, i fly as well Acrobat Se, 3DNT, SJM 400 V2, Roxxter 30 and even EP Concept lol !!

From my point of view, the Aurora will bring on the market a heli that can fly as well as stratus, vibes and MA products with a Thuinder Tiger price like ratio, so it's a total winner :)

Augusto, if you need more details about prices calculation or distribution channels, just send me PM or email and i'll try to give you as many help as i can. It took me one year to understand the VAT stuff before creating the company lol !!!

BEst regards,

Fabien

ShawnK

09-28-2006, 07:10 PM

All of this calculation only reiterates the point that I was trying to make earlier. It's a useless waste of time to complain to Augusto about the price of an Avant anywhere in Europe, because it's not Augusto's fault. If anyone in Europe wants to complain about the price of imported items, they need to complain elsewhere... namely, to their politicians about the ridiculous taxes that European businesses have to deal with.

tchavei

09-28-2006, 07:25 PM

Just a small detail... when fabian is multiplying the value by 1.72, he is in fact adding a 72% profit margin? And don't forget that as a retailer, you are not going to pay the street price of 985$ for the Aurora!

well, I don't know about you but heck... what about reducing that margin to 30% and sell 4 times as much? Thats called scale economies. Reduce the margins and increase the quantity.

Like I said before... rather sell 100 gyros with 30€ margin (3000€ profit) instead of 10 with a 100€ margin (1000€ profit).

Most stores in europe are planing to sell the Aurora at 1200€ which I believe is pretty ok but I bet that if one store is going to sell them at 1050€ they going to screw all other internet shops because here in Europe I don't care if I buy in Belgium, Germany, France or any other EU country, I'll get the product in 3-5 days and whitout hassles.

So assuming that particular store is going to make big publicity, its going to sell 10 times more than all other stores, this is going to make profits grow despite the reduced margin on every individual kit.

I've just learned that the Synergy is selling at 950€ in Spain and they are selling it like hot pancakes. The price in the US is 980$. So if that store is able to make such a price then why can't that happen with the Aurora?!?! Import taxes in Portugal and Spain are the same whenever you import from the US or from China so there is no excuse for such a big price difference

My two cents.

Tony

tchavei

09-28-2006, 07:41 PM

" their politicians about the ridiculous taxes that European businesses have to deal with. "

Its not the taxes! Its the shamefull margin profits that dealers want! 72%?!?! You're not selling 1 heli!, you are selling hundreds!

I'm in the computer business and my margins for computers is around 5% or I would be out of business, still we make thousands at the end of the year because we sell thousands of machines due to their low price and customers returning because of the good service!

Tony

PS - We also import computer components from the US and far east and we too deal with VAT and still with 5% profit margin we make money. You need to win a share in market and lowering prices and having a good service is the way.

tchavei

09-28-2006, 07:56 PM

Sorry folks. Price has gone down on the Synergy in Germany. 899€ now :shock:

Please Augusto, start producing the Aurora so I can have fun watching "real" european competition bringing the price down ;)

Tony

MD3DNT

09-29-2006, 03:32 AM

i m happy to see that the point that i brought are of interest to the heli community
its a good thing that we discuss the price topic in different countries
although it has been difficult to be able to raise this point in this forum and in run ryder forum

the synergy example is certainly a good point

Fabien

09-29-2006, 06:37 AM

Hi Guys,

i think you mistake about the calculation i gave you.

Margin is not 1,72 !!!

From this you already can remove 19,6% of the VAT that you have to give back to tax office.

The margin is 1,72 from BUY PRICE EXCLUDING VAT TO RETAIL PRICE INCLUDING VAT

So real margin is not so big for a shop.

Then you have to consider that the taxes in france for companies are not the same than in other courntries. They are so high that een some people now in France create companies in UK to make business .

ANd the, this is just that a reseller, most of the time, will tell you rankly that he is not interrested in selling a product under these values of margin.

And finally, there is a real gap between retail price and distributor price as welll, which helps in covering that kind of stuff, and only if the helicopter goes trhough real distributor channel ( Manufacturer -> Distributor -> Retailer -> Customer) then the price will become high becasue the distributor will earn some money as well.

I took the example for a helicotper with taking the price it was bought for a shop to the manufacturer. I really doubt that the public retail price is the same that is offered to a retailer of a distributor LOL !!!

Please read again waht i wrote before about the 1,72 thing, this is not a price that is multiplicated by 1,72, becasue then from the money earned you have to remove the VAT you refund to tax office. VAT is hard to deal with but it is Europe :)

Then about our politicians, maybe we have high taxes, but we have universal health insurance, we have unumployment insurances, minimum social insertion revenue, and lot of things that are not in other countries. And tis cost moey to the government as well so honnestly i do not complaint too much about that, becasue when i had my chests operation it was close to 200 000 Francs ( 35 000 euro) , i was only 21 and earned less than 800 euro per month. I had to pay nothing and all was covered by the health insurance you get when you work and i did keep 80% of my wages each monthes during the 12 monthes i could not work... Places where things are cheaper do not have that kind of financial suports, so yes it is more expensive in Europe, and in some places, because of teh taxes and the politics, but on the other hand when people complaint about a price, they should first thingk about the comfrotable situation they have here in France before complaining. We pay more, OK, but we get lot more as wellin term of unumployment and social and health insurances. And all this money is get by.. the taxes we pay :)

Augusto has some prics in USA? the European market is different, and if he whishes to have great coverage around the world then the only way is to have a manufacturer price for local market or international market, a distributor and a retailer price, and a final price, but this is more easy to talk about it than to make it ...

Wow what a topic anyway :))

Best regards, and all the best to you Augusto,

Fabien

DavidH

09-29-2006, 09:50 AM

I worked in a hobby shop here in the USA for 10 years. I know what prices the shop owners pay for the items they are selling. Here in the USA a shop owner is lucky to make $50 on a kit that he has $1000 invested in. So maybe 5% profit on a kit. High end radios are the same way. Most shops make a little more profit from the parts they sell. A whole 10-15% profit is about the average. So when the manufactuers here in the USA ship there items outside the USA for resale. They are not ripping anyone off. It is just costs start getting tacked on as the items make there way to the destinations. It costs to ship a large container, also a container is not immune from taxes that will be levied.
It is easy for a person to order a single package and have it slip by without paying any import taxes or other fees on it. Impossible to do when it is a container full of items.

David

bgjames111

09-29-2006, 11:17 AM

Yeah, I manage a lhs here in SD, and there is very little margin on big ticket items.

ShawnK

09-29-2006, 04:51 PM

although it has been difficult to be able to raise this point in this forum and in run ryder forum

No it's not. HeliFreak is all about the free exchange if ideas. As the motto at the top of every page states, we're about "Fun, Learning, Friendship, and Mutual Respect", and we mean what we say! :wink:

The only time we have to pull in the reigns on things is when people stray away from an open debate, and instead resort to personal attacks, incinuation, and inuendo. Asking why an Avant costs what it does is one thing, claiming that Augusto is somehow doing something underhanded (as has been done in this thread) is something altogether different.

Open discussion is good, and encouraged. :mrgreen:

MD3DNT

09-29-2006, 04:52 PM

the point is not to avoid taxes the point is that retailers are not allowed by augusto to sell outside a defined geographical zone . This give the opportunity to any shop to sell the price they want without any competition.
anyway i sent that info to the fraud repression in france
in europe its against the law

MD3DNT

09-29-2006, 05:00 PM

i't not personal attacks
i tried to raise an important issue on prices in the different countries and i asked why a shop in germany or in the US is not allowed to sell a kit in france . I often buy spares for my raptor in the US when there is a good price or in hong gong if the price is better

DebianDog

09-29-2006, 05:24 PM

retailers are not allowed by Augusto to sell outside a defined geographical zone

and you "know" this for a fact?