advice please: Tracking issue and Scorpion motor sounds like it's "missing"

[John Cook]

First couple flights after my crash and I'm having some issues.

#1 My blade tracking won't hold. I get it set, do a few tic tocs and the blades are tracking way off. Tried 2 sets/brands of blades. I was a bit lazy and didn't change the spindle on the crash as I had checked it and thought it might pass. Probably wrong, so when I got home I changed it, but wanted advice on other things to check.

#2 Scorpion motor sounds like it's missing sometimes. In a hover it "hiccups" or sounds that way and the tail gets twitchy. Align 100amp esc, NO gov mode. Couple things I'm thinking/worried about. My servos and especially my 9251 tail servo sound like they are buzzing more post crash. No binding in the tail linkage. I had chaulked the cyclic buzzing to several new links on the head and they are quite tight. Wondering if my BEC took some damage, and although it's working, wonder if the Rx is getting more "noise" from it for some reason. The tail and gyro are working fine otherwise. I did notice my Eagle tree was damaged in the crash slightly. One of the solder pads for the deans lifted, so I took that off. Disconnected the brushless rpm sensor which the connector is still attached to 2 of the motor pole leads, just having the futaba style connector hanging below the esc strapped down so it won't tangle in anything important.

Appreciate the help fellas. Felt good to get the outrage back in the air. Thinking about getting a spare b/c I missed this one for the 2 weeks it was down :dontknow

[trextuning]

check the arms that bolt onto the blade grips aren't slightly loose, I've had that after a crash twice now.

[wren1702]

When you replace the spindle, replace the bolts and washers. We were having problems when I found the washers were "cupped" allowing everything to run loose.

[John Cook]

check the arms that bolt onto the blade grips aren't slightly loose, I've had that after a crash twice now.
one of the arms was just barely loose :)
thx

[wren1702]

one of the arms was just barely loose :)
thx

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[magnito]

I think 550 has a potential of being an awesome Heli, but the fact is the my Trex 600 CF flies better than my 550 (which is a sad conclusion). I think the blame goes to the belt drive, the pulley is warped and I believe inducing vibrations over 2100 rpm. (on the side pulley I can see the belt moving up and down 3 mm, which what likely yanked the side pulley out in the first place--I've since then flipped them to be more secure).t At first I thought it was my flybar or imbalanced blades, but now on the second pair of blades and 300 mm flybar the problem persists, the heli "shakes" at 2200-2300 rpm in hover, reducing rpm to under 2100 smooths things out. I had my Trex 600 for a year, and its just a better flyer right now. 550 tends to yo-yo in hover, Trex just sits there without moving, 550 feels like its going to fall out of a sky when I do high speed circuits, Trex is like a truck -- just flies the pattern like its on rails. I am hoping that the new pulley will add flight quality and safely to this model, for now I am back on my Trex.

-Jack :mad:

[trextuning]

sounds like you have an issue there (which may be the pulley as you say) as my 550 tracks far better than my 600 and always has done.

[magnito]

sounds like you have an issue there (which may be the pulley as you say) as my 550 tracks far better than my 600 and always has done.

Could it be that your Trex has an issue? ;) I will post a video of Trex hover vs 550.
I double checked everything, the only thing is the belt thats moving around.

-Jack

PS. tracking could be a number of things of course, but vibration is fairly solid indicator of things out of balance.

[John Cook]

I have tracking and "changing" trim issues when the links are stiff and like new. I'm back to that now as I had to replace about 1/2 of my head links in my recent crash. Will pitch forward then once corrected will pitch back.

In a couple flights I expect that to change.

My Outrage 550 flies alot better than my 600E, but I think it really depends on what you like or want in your flight. My E's I want to be powerhouse stick bangers :).

[Foxden]

Jack,

Did the boom assembly with pulley guides I sent you arrive? BTW Steven fly's his 550 at around 2400 no vibrations

[trextuning]

Could it be that your Trex has an issue?

I've owned 600s for years and have run a good number of different upgrades through them (running a website about them for years gives you a good insight into this sort of thing). Simply put they just don't fly straight, the frames flex too much, the swashplates suffer phasing issues and they really don't track very well....... when compared to something like the 550.
Dont get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Align 600 heli's but they are not very accurate machines to do 3D with and the 550 out classes it fairly comprehensively.

[John Cook]

I've owned 600s for years and have run a good number of different upgrades through them (running a website about them for years gives you a good insight into this sort of thing). Simply put they just don't fly straight, the frames flex too much, the swashplates suffer phasing issues and they really don't track very well....... when compared to something like the 550.
Dont get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Align 600 heli's but they are not very accurate machines to do 3D with and the 550 out classes it fairly comprehensively.

I agree. I don't run a website but I've owned 4 600's. They fly ok, but once dialed in the 550 is just awesome. Just a matter of dialing it in.

I think the person that is having issues, shoudl dial up about 30-50% expo. With the programmable head, most pilots go to advanced settings when probably they should go intermediate. With advanced the heli is very twitchy/agile and needs alot of expo(at first for me anyway) to tame it down. Once I got my setup tuned how I liked, it was rocking there for awhile. Now after my crash I have to figure out what's my newest issue with the interactions in swash, and not holding my trims correct. IT's a setup issue NOT a heli issue. Just want to go on record I'm not blaming the heli. Just some lingering gremlins from my crash. That's probably one area where Align are easier to get back in the air as there are less variables to consider. Well a few anyay. Loving this OUtrage 550 though :). Plus Helidirect has them on sale through their ebay shop I'm so tempted to get a 2nd kit.

[magnito]

Jack,

Did the boom assembly with pulley guides I sent you arrive? BTW Steven fly's his 550 at around 2400 no vibrations

Yes, thanks! I've it installed. The vibrations persist, its gotta be the warped pulley. Whats the time line to get a replacement at HD?

-Jack

[magnito]

CoronaL (http://www.helifreak.com/member.php?u=45288), how much does your belt move when you do full revolution if at all?
Btw, this Heli is setup with intermediate settigs. And is my number 7 Heli.
(e.g. not first time I do a setup, I don't blame the heli either, just the pulley, and my inability to enjoy flying it)

-jack

[wren1702]

I would honestly be looking elsewhere for the vibration, Our pulley has some run out. No vibrations from it.

[magnito]

I would honestly be looking elsewhere for the vibration, Our pulley has some run out. No vibrations from it.

Everything was checked except for the motor, I will swap it out and see if it makes a difference.

-Jack

[wren1702]

Everything was checked except for the motor, I will swap it out and see if it makes a difference.

-Jack

You know, we had a weird vibration one time on a Phazor, and I swapped the motor to another heli...and the vibration followed. Replaced the bearings and motor shaft (Scorpion) and the vibe went away.

[rceccleston]

I have recently found the Scorpion motors run better, without twitching in governor mode, when the frequency is set to 8Khz rather than the typical 12Khz.

In response to your scorpion issue, I can only suggest inspecting the mesh on the high point of the main gear and possibly checking the motors shaft/bearings.

Else, your esc may have suffered damaged during the crash.

Good luck!!

[ktm520]

magnito, its not the pulley causing the vibration. If its visibly shaking the whole heli, it has to be something in the rotor head. There is not enough mass in the pulley to induce vibration levels high enough to shake the whole heli.

Basic heli setup 101, but have you double checked how tight you have the blade grips? I just recently bumped up my 550's hs from 2000 to 2200 and picked up a vibration that was shaking the whole heli to the point I could hear the canopy resonating. I had tightened one of the blades too tight and the other was on the loose side.

[magnito]

I will check that (blades). I also noticed that one of the blade grip arms has a loose bearing, while the other is solid and slop free. I will get another one ordered (note, this heli has 8 flights, and no crashes).

[Jamesppp]

I have recently found the Scorpion motors run better, without twitching in governor mode, when the frequency is set to 8Khz rather than the typical 12Khz.

InGood luck!!


Scorpion recommends 8Khz 15 degrees triming for thier motors...the 40mm ones anyway:YeaBaby:.

[lotus7]

Scorpion recommends 8Khz 15 degrees triming for thier motors...the 40mm ones anyway:YeaBaby:.
Where can I get confirmation of this ?
Could not find anything on Inniv8tivedesigns website and Espritmodels site gives 20 to 25 deg timing for ALL Scorpioin motors
We had ours ( 4020-1390 ) on 15 deg and it was "missing" , took the safe option and put timing on automatic. No problems so far

[Jamesppp]

Where can I get confirmation of this ?
Could not find anything on Inniv8tivedesigns website and Espritmodels site gives 20 to 25 deg timing for ALL Scorpioin motors
We had ours ( 4020-1390 ) on 15 deg and it was "missing" , took the safe option and put timing on automatic. No problems so far


I asked Lucien of Innov8tive designs, here is a copy/paste of his answer. Next I confimed with Castle which timing setting was 15° as they use ref. numbers in the programming software instead of timing numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesppp
Im trying to setup some of my Scorpion motors in Gov mode with Castle controllers on my helis

What Motor Timing and PWM Rate values do I need to input for the the 4020-1100 and 4020-1390 (5S and 6S apps. Also, Im using a 4025-740 with 10S and need suggestions.

Thanks



James,

The Scorpion motors like to run with a PWM setting of 8KHz and the timing around 15 degrees.

Back in a while!

Lucien

( Lotus 7,you can view the post in Innov8tives forum in RCG. Here is a link to the thread;

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12155130&postcount=4784

[lotus7]

( Lotus 7,you can view the post in Innov8tives forum in RCG. Here is a link to the thread;

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12155130&postcount=4784

Lucien

Could you please get Esprit Models to correct the info on their website , a bit misleading !

Thanks

[rceccleston]

I asked Lucien of Innov8tive designs, here is a copy/paste of his answer. Next I confimed with Castle which timing setting was 15° as they use ref. numbers in the programming software instead of timing numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesppp
Im trying to setup some of my Scorpion motors in Gov mode with Castle controllers on my helis

What Motor Timing and PWM Rate values do I need to input for the the 4020-1100 and 4020-1390 (5S and 6S apps. Also, Im using a 4025-740 with 10S and need suggestions.

Thanks



James,

The Scorpion motors like to run with a PWM setting of 8KHz and the timing around 15 degrees.

Back in a while!

Lucien

( Lotus 7,you can view the post in Innov8tives forum in RCG. Here is a link to the thread;

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12155130&postcount=4784
Scorpion advised the following for a Scorpion 4025-630KV with a Castle Creations 110HV esc.

Thank you for your email, for recommended drive frequency, please set as 8khz .

Best Regards
Scorpion Power System

Thank you for your email again, just set to 5 to 10 is just fine.
Have a nice fly.

Best Regards
Scorpion Power System


When I asked Castle Creations about 8Khz, they responded with..



ESC will run cooler on 8KHz, but that's about it. You won't notice any increase in performance, power, flight time, etc. We recommend the lowest timing on all outrunner motors. That will keep the motor cool, possibly increase flight times 10-30 seconds at most, and minimize the risk of the motor coming out of sync with the ESC.



Good luck!!