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filtr
05-06-2009, 06:33 PM
Hi Folks

I was at a chopper rally this weekend. I am learning to fly choppers. I seen a lot of the barless systems.

Is this the way to go in the future.

I am learning right now. But my wife is looking for a birthday present :YeaBaby: :noteworthy
so would this be a good investment.

Ron

Heli-RND
05-06-2009, 06:49 PM
Hi filtr,

Another Canadian here, flybarless is definitely the future, indeed it is now here. We joke in the field that flybar will be very precious very soon .... If you already have a good gyro on your chopper then SK 360 is a better choice...

If your wife is looking for a b gift.... :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Jag72
05-08-2009, 09:23 AM
There really is nothing better than the Mikado Vbar though:)

I have tried a few systems and have yet to find on that compares to the Vbar...

jvthert
05-08-2009, 10:25 AM
(...) salespitch (...)
^ Remember this comes from someone that makes a living out of selling the thing...


Flybarless is great which makes most people chear at whatever system they use even if they have never tried anything else. Having tried two now all I can say is that the Vbar does a much better job than the sk360 and when you take the price of the tail gyro into consideration it's outrageously priced. If you already have a good gyro you can sell it to overcome the price difference.

Jag72
05-08-2009, 11:59 AM
^ Remember this comes from someone that makes a living out of selling the thing...


Flybarless is great which makes most people chear at whatever system they use even if they have never tried anything else. Having tried two now all I can say is that the Vbar does a much better job than the sk360 and when you take the price of the tail gyro into consideration it's outrageously priced. If you already have a good gyro you can sell it to overcome the price difference.

I agree 100%...

I have tried the Skookum, vbar and now Gyrobots....I'm still voting for Vbar as top dog!

Danal Estes
06-05-2009, 09:44 PM
I think the original question was, "Will this help a beginner". The answer is "yes", but probably not as much help as they cost. You still have to fly the heli, learn orientations, etc. The Flybarless systems (really called flight stabilization systems) don't give their top benefit until you start flying aerobatics.

Spend your money on good helis and lots of flying time right now. When you are doing your very first flips and rolls, consider a Flight Stabilization System. For your B-Day present, get a the Phoenix sim (even if you have Real Flight) or get a really nice field case or, or, or...



And, from someone who's flown several: Mikado V-Bar clearly has a two or three year tech lead on everybody else.

CF_Machete
06-07-2009, 12:20 PM
Mikado does have a jump time wise, but they still do not have the gyrobot 900's auto leveling option. I've never used a mikado v bar, but for a beginner, letting go of your cyclic and having the heli bring itself into level hover is a huge atvantage. also, gyro bots are much smaller than the v bar and they are easy to setup. I've heard the v-bars software takes some getting use to.

just some things to think about.

Danal Estes
06-09-2009, 09:13 PM
Good point. V-Bar does not target beginner. Gyrobot and FMA Co-pilot do target beginner and would be a much better choice.

Wogboy
06-11-2009, 05:23 AM
I agree that Vbar is beneficial for a beginner, as I've found my Vbar heli (Logo 400) is very stable in forward flight and hovering. The heli tracks on rails, wherever you point it, until you tell it otherwise, and needs little correction to achieve a stable hover. This is a characteristic of most sims, which often fly too perfectly. So, if you can confidently fly a heli on the sim, I'd say you can translate that more easily into real life with a Vbar heli, as it has this "perfection".

With Vbar V4.0, the setup is also a lot simpler, and the instructions are very easy to follow.

Unfortunately the price tag will be more than some beginners are willing to pay, but hopefully this technology will be mainstream in the not-too-distant future, bringing the price down.

cub2000
06-13-2009, 08:12 AM
My vote is on the vbar v4 after trying both gyrobot 700 and vbar v4. In my opinion, the gyrobot owner needs to hire some programmers to make a modern-day interface for the users. The plain blue pattern with white text looks so iffy, reminding me of the old mainframe computer screens. You can't even enter the values that you want, but by using the TX stick and the stick is way too sensitive to key in the nice even number.

So I don't agree that vbar v4 is not friendly to beginners. The manual, the interfaces, all are just so well written and designed. Besides, the experts like MrMel, Jag72 can "smell" your problem right away when posting the vbar file in the forum. Gyrobot is probably a long way to the stage where you can simply save your settings to a file and share with others. Now for Gyrobot 900, I think it's overpriced. I do not need the hover assistance since I'm passed that. In my opinion, beginners who can't hover should stick with the stock flybar to begin with :)

kyalamikid
06-13-2009, 12:39 PM
Whilst I agree that Mikado are way ahead on PC software development (Gyrobot PC software is actually just an emulator of the Cockpit programmer), I do think the GB is ahead in hardware (built in accelerometers, single body unit, better materials and finishes etc). GB's challenge is to make there devices easier to setup ala V4.0.

It is perhaps ironic that whilst their beginner mode is quite brilliant (GB900), you need to be a pro to setup everything correctly.

More competition can only benefit us all. I seriously hope that LF come out with new more comprehensive PC software for the Gyrobot, especially for newbies to FBL. I have bought the cockpit and must admit it is way easier and more intuitive to use than the PC emulator as well as obviously being more convenient. I also would like to see Mikado integrate both units into one (like their new mini) as I find the stock V-Bar inelegant.

The AC-3X is another beautiful device, hardware wise perhaps the best, as it is the smallest and has the programmer built in with a beautiful OLED screen on top of the device itself.

Personally I don't really care for the PC software stuff, I want a hand held device that I can take with me to the field, and it should have V4.0 built in with all models and settings, or better still, have it all included in the device itself similar to the AC-3X. And having the receiver built in is also highly desirable. First to do all of this will get my vote....
For now I will use the Cockpit programmer at the field.

CHOCOFAN69DALEPABAJO
06-16-2009, 02:12 PM
can the V bar system be used with any other gyros?

jvthert
06-16-2009, 02:46 PM
nope

kyalamikid
06-16-2009, 04:07 PM
can the V bar system be used with any other gyros?
Why would you want to, I mean it has 3 gyros, elevator, aileron and rudder... and they seem to be top class gyros...?

MegaRex
06-16-2009, 10:20 PM
Holy crap!?!?, looks like u also pay for the gyrobots, dang. thats crazy. I dont really care about the beginer part of it, or the looks of it, i want the best performing one. :)

CHOCOFAN69DALEPABAJO
06-17-2009, 08:03 AM
Well I just asked,I kinda figured if I could use a spartan that I have stashed away her, but as I can clearly see it run's as a whole unite gyro and v- system and the fact that the gyro alone run's for $250. but if it work's great what the heck I think I'm gonna get one for my rex700.

kyalamikid
06-17-2009, 11:33 AM
It works really really well. My Gyrobot is in a Trex 250, it flies like a 500-600 class. I can only guess what it would be like in a 700.

The biggest challenge with going flybarless lies in the setup. It takes a lot of patience to get things right. In this regard the Mikado V-Bar PC based software appears the best and will probably be the quickest route to a well tuned ship.

Only problem is my T500 (flybarred) feels jerky and unresponsive in comparison to the T250, so I have to get bucks together for a FBL system for that now. Damn, the bug has bitten.

MegaRex
06-17-2009, 12:38 PM
It works really really well. My Gyrobot is in a Trex 250, it flies like a 500-600 class

:shock: wow

Danal Estes
06-17-2009, 01:00 PM
Boy, we've drifted far away from the "beginner" question... but... as per the hardware packaging:

V-Bar has the non-PC device today. They call it "Control Panel". Quite nice.

V-Bar is shipping the "Mini" very shortly. Everything in one box.

kyalamikid
06-17-2009, 03:38 PM
Boy, we've drifted far away from the "beginner" question... but... as per the hardware packaging:

V-Bar has the non-PC device today. They call it "Control Panel". Quite nice.

V-Bar is shipping the "Mini" very shortly. Everything in one box.
Yes, the GB Cockpit seems to be similar to the Control
Panel. However I think the presets of the V4.0 software go along way to make sure your setup is more or less correct for the beginner user before fine tuning with the Control Panel.

How well does the T500 compare to the fly barred version Danal I see you have both?

Danal Estes
06-17-2009, 05:45 PM
Yes, the GB Cockpit seems to be similar to the Control
Panel. However I think the presets of the V4.0 software go along way to make sure your setup is more or less correct for the beginner user before fine tuning with the Control Panel.

How well does the T500 compare to the fly barred version Danal I see you have both?

No comparison. Wanna buy an flybarred T500?

Seriously, V-Bar was new enough to the folks in this area when I did my V-Bar 500 that I decided to buy a kit rather than convert. That turned out to be a mistake. I never fly the one with the cheese slicer in the head any more, other than the occasional flight to remind myself, yah, they really are THAT different.

:)

kyalamikid
06-18-2009, 01:05 AM
No comparison. Wanna buy an flybarred T500?

Seriously, V-Bar was new enough to the folks in this area when I did my V-Bar 500 that I decided to buy a kit rather than convert. That turned out to be a mistake. I never fly the one with the cheese slicer in the head any more, other than the occasional flight to remind myself, yah, they really are THAT different.

:)
Thanks Danal, I am busy ordering Mikado T500 head conversion:). Only thing that concerns me is the slop in my swash.....but I guess you must have it to as all T500s seem to be victim to this...

Danal Estes
06-18-2009, 08:26 AM
Thanks Danal, I am busy ordering Mikado T500 head conversion:). Only thing that concerns me is the slop in my swash.....but I guess you must have it to as all T500s seem to be victim to this...

That's the head I'm flying. I think you'll like it.

Interesting thing about slop, servos that don't quite center, etc. Within reason, the V-Bar is going to compensate for all of that.

Centering and slop were VERY important when the stick returned to a spring-center mechanical position. The servo and link needed to follow that with great accuracy and repeatability. Since the V-Bar senses what the HELI is doing via the gyros, it will just continue to move the servo/link until the desired result is achieved. Centering and slop matter much less.

Again, within reason. Lots of error in servo or links and even the V-Bar is going to be fighting it too much... Mostly though, it will just keep moving things around (very quickly) until the desired flight path is achieved.

Interesting side-effect of FSSes in general.

kyalamikid
06-18-2009, 03:45 PM
That's the head I'm flying. I think you'll like it.

Interesting thing about slop, servos that don't quite center, etc. Within reason, the V-Bar is going to compensate for all of that.

Interesting side-effect of FSSes in general.
Wow that is interesting! I spent so much time anally removing all slop from everything in my T250 as I was worried that FBL would be more sensitive to slop... Looks like the Gyrobot may solve my swash issue on the T500.... I hate the jerkiness on elevator at the moment. It's less noticeable on aileron (probably because there isnt a tail boom to point it out to you). MG servos are also contributing, but the swash is the main culprit.

Thanks for the feedback.

Heli-RND
06-18-2009, 06:46 PM
The first SK 360 I should was installed on a cheap slopy Esky King II, test flight was amazing that the blade tracked a lot better than the flybar one, so flybarless device helps to eliminate the factor of slop, that is for sure almost, your GB should help the 250