More problems with a UK turbine dealer

[Janek]

Keith, where did that Quote come from ?, the one that starts "janek you had your chance. . . . "

As it happens it's "true", I did avoid introducing myself to Neil on Saturday, and the reason for that is respect to the person who owns the field and who permits me, you, and others, to use it.

It's also true that I've have never had any dealing with Neil, and I never will, I have come to understand the way he operates by speaking directly to people who have, and watching how our mutual friend was treated and knowing the souces of the parts he received.

I'm glad you have had 4 sucessful "deals" with Neil, because I hate to see deals turn sour, especially with friends, but I still advise treading carefully whenever dealing with him.

[Janek]

Keith, as a matter of interest, the first part of my post you quote above, where I talk about "GB", is about someone totally unrelated to Neil.

[WillJames]

I'm with Janek. Why introduce and have a confrontation with someone who has no scruples, I could think of better ways to blow off some energy just like Janek chose to do.

As for you gettign 4 good helis off Neil Keith, that seems to be the exception rather than teh rule and the HARD Screwing he has given any ONE of the people he has ripped off is enough for anyone to avoid him like the plague.

Lets keep it real here and not try to sugarcoat crap because everybody knows what the real deal is. The simple and very real fact remains that people are getting a royal screwing at the hands of this "gentleman" and the small heli community is not going to lay down for it.

[modtron]

Janek,

With respect to your mutual friend - Out of interest, have you ever bothered to ask him directly, if he is pleased with the system he has and is running?

Just wondered.

[keith nicholas]

[quote="modtron"]Janek,

With respect to your mutual friend - Out of interest, have you ever bothered to ask him directly, if he is pleased with the system he has and is running?

Jus

wondered.[/hi,janek has seen the heli flying has taken several photos of it flying with no engine problems at all,he did not slag niel off then so why now,several people have ordered turbine helis from niel as a result of this, the fact that niel may be producing a better turbine than wren will obviously upset the competion,i have purchased 4 helis from niel cash on delivery and have no compliants,janek knows every body is happy with niel at the field but not like it

[Sara]

Keith,

"the fact that niel may be producing a better turbine than wren will obviously upset the competion"

That isn't what is upsetting us. We don't mind fair competition, it's good for the market. What you don't seem to realise is that Neil isn't producing his own engines, he's passing off Wren ones as his own, which is a crime. He sold Wren engines from May 04 to April 05 but we stopped dealing with him because his customers were complaining of long delays (8 months plus) and incomplete orders. Whilst he was dealing with us he had photos of our engine parts (turbine wheels, engine internals, interstage parts) on his website. When we refused to deal with him any longer and asked him to take our products off his site, he wrote "Turbine Technics"over the existing photos and now insists that they are all his parts, he designs and makes them.

Every single customer of Neil's who has shown us their engine has a Wren. If he designs and makes the engines, why did SmallPaul receive a 4-year old Wren? The turbine helicopter community is small and several people have told us that Neil is trying to buy secondhand Wrens - why, if he has these wonderful new engines of his own? He even uses our ECUs with a piece of gaffer tape over our name ....

Wren have been in this business for 7 years, we have a team of 4 engineers with something like 50 years accumulated small turbine experience between them and we have sold hundreds of turbine engines all over the world. We have 8 people working here and a turnover of over half-a-million pounds per year. The Wren helicopter engines are on the shelf here and I could send one to a customer tomorrow.
Neil came into turbines just over two years ago and is a one-man business, he doesn't even work at it full-time. All his turbine customers seem to have to wait for months to get anything.
We don't believe for a moment that he's designed his own engines and had all the parts made - we know how much money and experience is required and Neil doesn't have it. All the evidence shows that what he is selling are Wren engines. We'd be very interested to see the one at your club.


Sara Parish
Wren Turbines Ltd

[Janek]

hi,janek has seen the heli flying has taken several photos of it flying with no engine problems at all,he did not slag niel off then so why now,several people have ordered turbine helis from niel as a result of this, the fact that niel may be producing a better turbine than wren will obviously upset the competion,i have purchased 4 helis from niel cash on delivery and have no compliants,janek knows every body is happy with niel at the field but not like it

Keith, you have to be careful with the square brackets when using the quote function, and the preview and spell check options are useful tools :wink:

Yes, I have taken photo's of the Chinook, both on the bench and in the air, but I admire the hard work, and ingenuity of the designer/builder, NOT the supplier of the powerplant, that's a trivial part of the project.

Yes, I have seen it fly, and the powerplant worked fine for what was an unfortunately short flight (no fault of the turbine). And yes I admired it, but again, the mechanics, not the powerplant.

See Sara's response regarding your comments about "Neil's better turbine" !

Cash on delivery is an inherently safe way of buying secondhand heli's, I applaud you for taking this safe option, but you need to ensure, for your own safety, where they are coming from.

Janek knows everyone is NOT happy at the field, only the weekend before last did I have a unprompted conversation at the field with someone that was extremely concerned with Neils character :shock:

I will be watching and listening very carefully to those people who have ordered turbine units from Neil, I just pray they have taken your cash on delivery stance :roll:

Oh, and one final point, believe it or not, I'm trying to look out for your butts, I have absolutely no interest in Neil or his business.

[Coolice]

Hi Keith,

I would suggest you get some more facts before jumping into a subject you obviously do not know both sides to.

Well done on your 4 great deals, to all those screwed over there appears light at the end of the tunnel. That is assuming your in the market for a second hand heli and not a turbine :!:

A good handful of modellers (and traders for that matter, I have spoken to a few now) have all suffered at the hands of TT, without so much as a true appology. Just pathetic, lame excuses.
Also the personality of the guy behind the name is one that is just plain rude and unwelcome now with a lot of people, all of which is down to his OWN doing and the way he handles his responses.

Like any public market sector, WREN are open to legitimate challenges to match the performance of their engine and I applaud anyone who can even close to that level of performance.
But TT getting there on their own back and design initiative? I dont think so !!!

I bet you'll find, if you could get close enough to the internals, that their demo Cuatro flown by Dean Jackson is powered by a WREN engine.

Study the forums close enough and you will realise you have been very fortunate in your purchases and the good deals from TT are in a very small numbers.
.

[Janek]

Coolice, Keith is real, and isn't Neil, I know him personally.

He's forgetting that he's only getting one side of a story (Neil's), and is assuming everything else is either "hearsay" or lies :roll:

[Coolice]

Hey Janek,

Thanks for the info, have amended post.
.

[keith nicholas]

Coolice, Keith is real, and isn't Neil, I know him personally.

He's forgetting that he's only getting one side of a story (Neil's), and is assuming everything else is either "hearsay" or lies :roll:
jan please axcuse the spelling as i am only a simply ****ry lad not stuk up townyyuppy,ok yahh,i will be getting my new heli from niel tomorrow,2 days late just so you can slag him off again,any grievences please turn up early as the ringside tickets got wastwd last week (i will be taking mi dickcenterey with mer tomorrow)if u want to look after our butts (your quote)then please dont be a pain in it ,we will decide on evil k-niel vel ourselves keith

[DavidH]

Just an observation. But if all of these are made up accusations. I know if I was Neil I would be here in a heart beat to defend myself.
So it would seem where there is smoke, there definitely must be fire involved in this situation.


David

[keith nicholas]

[quote="DavidH"]Just an observation. But if all of these are made up accusations. I know if I was Neil I would be here in a heart beat to defend myself.
So it would seem where there is smoke, there definitely must be fire involved in this situation.


David[/quote wait and see and i will provide proof when i take the photos tomorrow,i owe niel nothing but will not see him slaged off needlessley as janek was asked what did our mutual friend think of his turbine,do you see him complaining,of course not as he is very happy but janek will not say that,if super hero superjan wants to save us all from niel without even confronting him at the field then please leave us to find out by our own mistakes instead of trying to fill our heads with bullshit,please excuse the spelling as i am not a computer nerd like him.

[DavidH]

Anybody can provide photos of helis.

The question is the engine that Neil is selling a relabeled Wren turbine engine? Now no one knows the answer to that but Neil and the people at Wren. The people at Wren have said is there engines that are relabeled and Neil is passing it off as a TT engine.
If that is the truth. I would not think too highly of a business with those kinds of scruples.

David

[keith nicholas]

Anybody can provide photos of helis.

The question is the engine that Neil is selling a relabeled Wren turbine engine? Now no one knows the answer to that but Neil and the people at Wren. The people at Wren have said is there engines that are relabeled and Neil is passing it off as a TT engine.
If that is the truth. I would not think too highly of a business with those kinds of scruples.

Davidi have seen his components compared to wren and they are not the same (similar but not the same)since the wheel was invented they have all been round not any other shape ,or have they?. a wheel is a whe el regardless of size ,so just because niels turbine looks like a turbine does it mean he pinched the idea from someone else, the fact that he is not replying to this silly witchunt is because he is out flyiny with his turbine getting himself a life instead of sitting in front of a screen replying to a load of crap.sorry to superjan 4 the spelling,keith

[keith nicholas]

Hey Janek,

Thanks for the info, have amended post.
. hi i have purchesed 3 nice century helis from niel if u are intrested in buying them,keith .sorry to superjan 4 the spelling

[sp possie]

Keith Nicholas (KN), As Forum etiquette suggests, please introduce yourself. As you have suddenly joined on the 10 Jul 06, after Neil was "removed" and gone straight into this Thread, some ideas for your intro would be: what club you belong to, qualifications you have, what heli you fly and how long you have been flying etc. You appear to be slagging others off for sitting in front of the screen on the Forum, yet have spent a considerable amount of time, in the last 5 days doing exactly that.
Although we are not flyers ourselves, we are used to giving constructive information on other Forums and would not dream of flaming a thread as an apparent first poster like yourself! We never introduced ourselves as we only joined the forum to thank everyone at Wren, publically, as we have been involved with small Paul's case and have seen all documentation/reports regarding his problems with Neil Key (NK?),

NB: Not all "geeks", as you put it, can spell, but every computer has a spell check.

[Janek]

Keith, you been on the sauce tonight ?

[Sara]

Quote from Keith
"a wheel is a wheel regardless of size ,so just because niels turbine looks like a turbine does it mean he pinched the idea from someone else,"

All turbines have similarities, but if you were to put a Jakadovsky, two JetCats (PHT and SPH) and a Wren engine side-by-side you would see that there are considerable differences in the designs. If you were to open the engines and look at the parts you would find many more differences in shape, size and configuration. You couldn't take parts - for example diffusers, combustion chambers, turbine wheels - from any one of these and use it in another.
Neil has been boasting that he has his own design of turbine, yet the only parts shown on his website which aren't from Wren are his outer cases, red FOD screens, exhausts and gearboxes. All the vital internal engine parts are ours.

Anyone who would like to come to the Wren factory and compare the pictures on Neil's site with the boxes full of Wren parts on our shelves, please contact us. We have an Open Day at the factory on the 23rd July and would be happy to see you.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[keith nicholas]

[quote="sp possie"]Keith Nicholas (KN), As Forum etiquette suggests, please introduce yourself. As you have suddenly joined on the 10 Jul 06, after Neil was "removed" and gone straight into this Thread, some ideas for your intro would be: what club you belong to, qualifications you have, what heli you fly and how long you have been flying etc. You appear to be slagging others off for sitting in front of the screen on the Forum, yet have spent a considerable amount of time, in the last 5 days doing exactly that.
Although we are not flyers ourselves, we are used to giving constructive information on other Forums and would not dream of flaming a thread as an apparent first poster like yourself! We never introduced ourselves as we only joined the forum to thank everyone at Wren, publically, as we have been involved with small Paul's case and have seen all documentation/reports regarding his problems with Neil Key (NK?),
i use the same club as janek,for the past three years.as you do not fly yourself i do not see any point in replying to your question.do you know what a heli is?read your own comments,how can you give advice on somethingyou admit you know nothing about,and you have the cheek to ask me about my status,im not as good a flyer as janek but i do own 11 helis,so bo--ocks to you

[Coolice]

Keith,

hi i have purchesed 3 nice century helis from niel if u are intrested in buying them,keith

Was this aimed at me? Do I want to buy them? No thank you, I have a real passion for Century models and have many myself (read my signature) but I do not need to buy them from you or Neil. But thanks for the offer!

i have seen his components compared to wren and they are not the same (similar but not the same)since the wheel was invented they have all been round not any other shape ,or have they?. a wheel is a whe el regardless of size ,so just because niels turbine looks like a turbine does it mean he pinched the idea from someone else, the fact that he is not replying to this silly witchunt is because he is out flyiny with his turbine getting himself a life instead of sitting in front of a screen replying to a load of crap.sorry to superjan 4 the spelling,keith

He's out flying a turbine? Where exactly, as I heard he does not have an A certificate to fly at the Eynesford Club.
*Update* I have it on good authority that Neil is still a full member of the Eynesford Club and has NOT been thrown out, incase you read it anywhere else.
When you saw this turbine did you look interanlly by any chance? Would you even know how to?
I am a trained engineer myself and so know that knocking up a different FOD screen/guard for a turbine is easy. As to is the casing I am sure, but it's the turbine wheels which are not so easily made and then balanced.

Lets be serious now and sit you down for one minute, as I seriously think that you need to start being a little more diplomatic & serious in your posting if you are to take part in this conversation.

You cannot go around accusing people of not knowing facts just because you feel that yours or your perspective is more accurate.

If all what you can read at various places is taken into account, postings made by TRUE modellers (who are not connected with any trade or one make) but paying customers off the street, then you will see some pattern build up from facts and their dealings.

Ok, YOU PERSONALLY have not had any problems with TT (Neil Key) but there are a growing number of people who have and have quite rightly let everyone know though the public forums.
What isn't so well known is that the trade have had problems to, what with non payment of bills etc. even magazines!!!

Also, look closely at the Turbine Predator on the TT web site then look at pictures of mine from a year ago and you will see they are the same!
It has been sworn blind to me it isn't, but the tell tale pinky/red fuel tubing protecting the aerial to the skids is a dead giveaway. There are other points but they are beside the point now.
I also know that a few years back there was one person trying to call my machine his companys work at a fly-in at that time, from the thread you know who that was.

At the end of the day I or anyone on this forum have nothing to gain by slagging off anyone person for no reason and so any negative talk is backed up by evidence and so dont assume it isn't.
I am not in here to slag anyone off either, I have nothing to gain by doing so, but I do object to people assuming others are wrong and stupid for giving their comments on proven facts.

It has been mentioned why is the accused not on here defending himself, the simple answer is he cant! People have got wise and banned him, another has just followed suit.
Also he will not defend himself, more likely as he has been done in the past, he will attack certain partys diverting the real conversation in the first place.
Putting down one company to make yours look good isn't great business sense as you can imagine.
For this very reason WREN have never put down TT's work, even when being bad mouthed in public forums by a person who is in competition with them in the same market sector. Who just so happens tries to sell their own product by attacking the competition.

What I always find funny is that if someone has a good product to sell, then why isn't it demo'd at the major model shows?
It's all well and good sticking a good flier on the sticks of a prototype machine at a club field, but surely some money spent at a decent show will get people to notice your product.

Another point to think about is were are all these supposedly satisfied TT Turbine customers coming into the forums and proving there is a genuine product available?
None what so ever and the two I knew about soon jumped off the band wagon when they realised they had plumped for the wrong supplier.

Of course you need a product to sell in the first place, if indeed there is one to sell in the first place?!

All food for thought perhaps.
.

[Mylee]

the fact that he is not replying to this silly witchunt is because he is out flyiny with his turbine getting himself a life instead of sitting in front of a screen replying to a load of crap.sorry to superjan 4 the spelling,keith




Interesting.........As NK is a member of our club, I know for a fact - HE CAN'T FLY :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[wolfdad]

All concerned;
There is a bit more to this RR thread than has been made public. Gregory is and has been a good friend for several years now. I will agree with most that Gregory is "plain spoken" and cuts to the chase right away, however, I find this refreshing and I really hate to listen to someone for 15 minutes, then spend half an hour trying to figure out what he/she said.

The agreement in question had some in's and out's on both sides of the coin, however I would encourage anyone with an interest in this situation to hear both sides of the story before passing judgment.

On the subject of Neil, he is one of very few exports from the UK that I want never to see on this side of the pond....for both our sakes. I think Janek said it best several posts above.
Doc

[1275mini]

Doc we have all chipped in to buy him a one ticket to the states :twisted:

[wolfdad]

:arggg: :arggg: :arggg: :arggg: :arggg: :arggg: :arggg:
Doc