More problems with a UK turbine dealer

[Sara]

I'm starting a new thread about the UK company called Turbine Technics because something very disturbing has happened. There has already been one thread about this (Turbine dealer ripoff) but I have spoken to a moderator and been told that I can start a new thread so that it gets people's attention.

We know from a number of dissatisfied TT customers that there have been long delays in getting parts from Neil at Turbine Technics, and that some people only received part orders despite having waited for a very long time. Yesterday Wren were visited by a customer who had recently received his brand-new Turbine Technics helicopter, and this is his story:

He paid for a complete turbine heli last July from Neil. There had been excuse after excuse, delay after delay, and he even sent letters from a solicitor (lawyer) because after many months he still hadn't received anything. Eventually, two or three weeks ago after the customer had put a lot of pressure on him with visits and letters, Neil told him he could fetch the helicopter from the business unit used by Turbine Technics. When the customer arrived there the unit was closed, no sign of anyone - but the heli was outside, under a towel ....!!

He took it home and ran it for a minute or two but wasn't quite sure it was making the right noises. He phoned me at Wren and asked if he could come up and see us - over 200 miles away - for us to check it. He wasn't going to try taking it back to Neil in case he never saw it again.

So he arrived at the Wren factory yesterday morning and this is what we found:

First the ECU. It was a green FADEC autostart, older type. The green wrapped ones are only available through Wren so Neil had put a piece of duct tape over our name. (You would have expected him to do something a little less obvious, like making a new label, but he didn't.) He'd told the customer that he did all the FADEC programming - but when we switched it on the opening screen showed "Wren Turbines MW54" .... how kind of him to program it with the name of a competitor!

Then we looked at the engine. The gearbox was not a Wren, so presumably a TT one, but the first and second stages of the engine were Wren, as was the FOD screen and the exhaust. It appeared well-used, and when we opened up the first stage engine we found it was a 3 to 4 year old Mk 2 Wren!!!

The Wren helicopter engines are very robust and the engine was fine - for an older one - and the wheels had been properly balanced by us. There was a problem with the power turbine - the wheel was not properly fitted to the shaft, probably because there had originally been another gearbox fitted and Neil had fitted the new gearbox without pushing the wheel right up to the spacer on the shaft.

We checked the engine over carefully and re-fitted the power turbine wheel to the gearbox shaft. The customer only paid for the two bearings needed for the power turbine shaft.

This customer bought what he was told was a brand new Turbine Technics engine, designed, developed and made by Neil (that's what it says on his website) - and it was in fact a three year old Wren!! He was also made to wait almost a year between payment and delivery.

He is relieved that at least he has something that works, and that although it is old it is a real Wren. We have said that we will look after it for him - it's basically a good engine. However, he is furious that not only did he have to wait so long but he has paid far too much for it because it's not a new engine, it is secondhand. He has given me permission to tell people about this and if anyone wants to speak to him in person they can PM me. We aren't happy either, because Neil is passing our engine off as his.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[1275mini]

That guy is like an itch that you cannot scratch

[wolfdad]

Once again, the Wren Team makes a brilliant positive out of a pure negative...something they have now become famous for. And, the individual involved on the "other side of the coin" is like a bad habit...he just won't go away. This is only one of numerous instances where Neil has either attempted to or has successfully screwed over an individual and usually leaving the good people at Wren to sort out and fix the mess. Hopefully, Sara, you, Roger and the rest of the Wren Team can fashion some type of remedy to end Neil's charade. The bottom line is that Neil is a cheat and liar and does a great disservice to all of us in the heli community. And, once again, the Wren Team steps up to the plate and simply says, "it's a Wren and we will fix it."
Doc

[Coolice]

Hey Sara,

This is very sad to be hearing about again! Another devoted modeller who saved for their dream turbine model, lured into what is basically a trap to make money and not provide a product or service.

You know where I stand on this and after all this time I thought it was done and dusted, but alas it isn't!!!

Once again one of the best, if not the BEST turbine group has helped a fellow modeller to have atleast some enjoyment out of what turned into a nightmare!
That is why I am proud to be part of their team!

I know the best UK model magazine, Model Helicopter World, stopped posting TT's adverts over a year ago on the strength of previous dealings, problems & facts which I feel is very admirable of them.

However another mag did promote the company at one stage, which is a good reason why people need to be made aware of the problems genuine TT customers experienced before they possibly get burned and loose any hard earned money.

Hopefully prospective turbine buyers will come to this forum first before making their choice in the turbine world.
.

[Mylee]

Sara,

Very interesting. Thank-you for the information. I do not fly a turbine but know Neil as he has asked me to supply him with canopy covers. A number of people have warned me of his business practice. He is a member of our club and has even messed around orders received from fellow club members. :? :?

[Janek]

Here's a quote from the TT website:

"TURBINE Assemblies are tried and tested and built by ourselves... We utilise reliable turbine and second-stage parts developed with our own casings and combustion chamber. Development, and the majority of manufacture, is controlled in-house."

A non-spin translation:

"TURBINE Assemblies are secondhand and re-built by ourselves. . . . . We utilise old and tired turbines and second-hand parts developed with our own boxes and fresh air. Wishful thinking, and a tiny bit of copyright infringement, is controlled from my house."

[Coolice]

LOL :D

[Mylee]

This is actually a very serious matter. I may stand corrected but IIRC it's known as 'passing off'
Maybe Sara would like to enlighten us to whether Wren will be taking this matter further?

[Sara]

Mylee,
Wren are definitely taking this matter further. We have had problems with this sort of thing once before - several years ago another company tried "passing off" a Wren helicopter as their own at a trade show, thinking that as it was in Germany rather than the UK we wouldn't notice. Fortunately our German dealer was there and he complained to the police on our behalf. The police removed the helicopter from the booth and through a German lawyer we took legal action against the other company and prevented them from either copying or "passing off" Wren helicopters again.
We have suspected for over a year that Neil was passing off our engines as his own, since our parts are shown on his website with "Turbine Technics" written on the pictures. Now we have solid proof that he is passing Wren engines off as Turbine Technics ones, action will be taken.

Regards
Sara

[1275mini]

Nail his backside to the wall :twisted:

[Gary Travis]

Ahhh, The clown prince of turbine helicopters strikes again, I am truely amazed that this stuff is still going on. I am just glad the poor guy got some help so as to not make it a total loss.
Gary

[Mylee]

Sara,
Once again thanks for confirming what I'd already heard. My business is very small and a :badair: like this could easily turn it under. But being a fellow club member I was prepared to give him the benifit of the doubt and do some work for him. Thats not the case now, I will not be trading with him.
I look forward to seeing him at our field soon :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[ozzy pilot]

This guy has created so much grief for people even as far away as Australia. Put simply he needs to be stopped in these underhanded business practices. I am so glad I gave this guy the shove before I got involved with him.

Good luck to those waiting resolution.

Edited:
I forgot to add a very well done to Sara and Wren for their superb service once again.

[Heli_jack]

Thanks Sara for keeping us informed.
Jack

[smallpaul]

I'm starting a new thread about the UK company called Turbine Technics because something very disturbing has happened. There has already been one thread about this (Turbine dealer ripoff) but I have spoken to a moderator and been told that I can start a new thread so that it gets people's attention.

We know from a number of dissatisfied TT customers that there have been long delays in getting parts from Neil at Turbine Technics, and that some people only received part orders despite having waited for a very long time. Yesterday Wren were visited by a customer who had recently received his brand-new Turbine Technics helicopter, and this is his story:

He paid for a complete turbine heli last July from Neil. There had been excuse after excuse, delay after delay, and he even sent letters from a solicitor (lawyer) because after many months he still hadn't received anything. Eventually, two or three weeks ago after the customer had put a lot of pressure on him with visits and letters, Neil told him he could fetch the helicopter from the business unit used by Turbine Technics. When the customer arrived there the unit was closed, no sign of anyone - but the heli was outside, under a towel ....!!

He took it home and ran it for a minute or two but wasn't quite sure it was making the right noises. He phoned me at Wren and asked if he could come up and see us - over 200 miles away - for us to check it. He wasn't going to try taking it back to Neil in case he never saw it again.

So he arrived at the Wren factory yesterday morning and this is what we found:

First the ECU. It was a green FADEC autostart, older type. The green wrapped ones are only available through Wren so Neil had put a piece of duct tape over our name. (You would have expected him to do something a little less obvious, like making a new label, but he didn't.) He'd told the customer that he did all the FADEC programming - but when we switched it on the opening screen showed "Wren Turbines MW54" .... how kind of him to program it with the name of a competitor!

Then we looked at the engine. The gearbox was not a Wren, so presumably a TT one, but the first and second stages of the engine were Wren, as was the FOD screen and the exhaust. It appeared well-used, and when we opened up the first stage engine we found it was a 3 to 4 year old Mk 2 Wren!!!

The Wren helicopter engines are very robust and the engine was fine - for an older one - and the wheels had been properly balanced by us. There was a problem with the power turbine - the wheel was not properly fitted to the shaft, probably because there had originally been another gearbox fitted and Neil had fitted the new gearbox without pushing the wheel right up to the spacer on the shaft.

We checked the engine over carefully and re-fitted the power turbine wheel to the gearbox shaft. The customer only paid for the two bearings needed for the power turbine shaft.

This customer bought what he was told was a brand new Turbine Technics engine, designed, developed and made by Neil (that's what it says on his website) - and it was in fact a three year old Wren!! He was also made to wait almost a year between payment and delivery.

He is relieved that at least he has something that works, and that although it is old it is a real Wren. We have said that we will look after it for him - it's basically a good engine. However, he is furious that not only did he have to wait so long but he has paid far too much for it because it's not a new engine, it is secondhand. He has given me permission to tell people about this and if anyone wants to speak to him in person they can PM me. We aren't happy either, because Neil is passing our engine off as his.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

Hi my name is small paul and now im a turbine flyer and id just like to say many thanks to wren turbines for there outstanding and dedication regarding a pile of crap that i ended up with, with turbine techniques wrens bent over backwards and allowed an engineer to spend a day putting right what was wrong for anyone thinking of purchasing a tubine through turbine techniques be warned you will wait a year or more you will not get a new product and it will probably be 3-4 years of age like mine was. If it wasn't for wrens id probably would of been totally out of pocket many many thanks to sara and fellow workers for there hard work dedication and making me feel good again with my qwatro from smallpaul :lol:

[1275mini]

Stick with wren you will not go far wrong :cool:
they are a great bunch of guys and doll (sorry sara)

[Sara]

Thanks for coming on Helifreak, Paul, and confirming what has happened. It is awkward for us to post things concerning a competitor but I think people know us well enough to realise that this isn't us trying to make TT look bad but is a warning to anyone else trying to buy from Neil. It's good that now other people can read your side of the story.

Incidentally, I don't know if people have seen that Neil has now gone into print on RR, Turbine section, thread about Gregory Barnes. Neil says that "the freaks on the other side get together and make up a lot of false stories" :roll:
I leave it to the rest of you to make your own minds up about who is telling the truth.


Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[Coolice]

Hey Sara,

I've just been reading that and am tempted to reply, but may leave it to give him a break before the real stuff happens :cool:

For those who want to read it (I dont think there is a problem if I post the link) you can nip across to the sub-standard forum for a giggle :

http://runryder.com/helicopter/t264229p1/

See you back here soon :lol:
.

[Janek]

Ummm, interesting thread on RR, GB has indeed upset a lot of people, basically because he behaves like a rich bully, and quickly resorts to personal attacks when he starts to loose a reasoned argument. I've personally been in this situation, as has at least one of the senior members of this site :roll:

If Neil wants to defend himself and his business, why doesn't he come here and do it ?, I can make an educated guess. . . . . .

I think I'll introduce myself properly the next time he makes an appearance at my field :twisted:, although I suspect he already knows. . . . . I've heard he "dislikes" me, even though we've only passed the time of day once :roll:

[Mylee]

Sorry, after a personal call from Neil this morning leaving a message on my answer phone, I had to reply on RR, however I can not and will not let this get into an arguement on an open forum as it is now causing ripples through our club.

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t264229p1/?p=2087209#RR

[Coolice]

Hey,

In all honesty I feel it's a real shame that things have turned the way they have as we're all in this hobby to have fun and/or make a living.
It's the latter part is what makes me wonder as to why all the lies and deceit from a business person, especially in view of the need to make a living and support family.

TT do have what appear to be some nice products and indeed the modelling world welcomes new and interesting ideas, but the dark cloud surrounding the name does rightfully put people off.

I have said this in previous conversations with the accused after he came at me personally, which was not something I was going to let slip by. Ok I maybe made myself look a bit of a fool for rising to it but then it was justified.
Now I am calmly watching & reading in the wings as WREN are not only my sponsors but my friends to and I stick by my friends.

Hopefully this matter will be dealt with soon enough and the guilty party laid to rest so to speak.
.

[smallpaul]

Reference: To Neil Key laughable comments.
Obviously he has a problem with the heat and loss of memory. I would just like to say that the agreed price for my new turbine helicopter from Neil Key was £4430 on completion from 4 weeks to the date of order. I have signed documentations on headed paper from the man himself. It wasn't until September, after months of lame excuses that I cancelled, when Neil presented me with a post dated cheque. Two days before banking the cheque, Neil contacted me late one evening and asked me to reconsider the agreed price and presented a new price of £3000. With no changes to Agreement. All this data can be proven on headed paper by Turbine Techniques. Also regarding my A Certificate, I would have actually had this a year ago if my order had been completed as per the original agreement. I would advise Neil Key, if he decides to continue with his lies and accusations about threatening his family which is a complete and utter untruth, he should stay out of the sun, obviously it doesn't agree with him. If anyone is interested in the whole facts, feel free to email me on smallpaul@blueyonder.co.uk, as I will only put up with Neil Key for a little while longer when the true facts become apparent!!!

[Alfred]

smallpaul
Can you edit your last post?
Apart from the obvious spelling mistakes, it doesn't make any sense.
:shock:

[sp possie]

Sara,
We are really pleased you have sorted our 'small paul' out, you have put the smile back on his face.
He is a very good friend of ours and we have been supporting him over the past few months with regard to the Neil turnout.
We would like to personally thank you for all you have done at WREN, and its nice to know there are professionals in the modeling industry who put peoples feelings before money.
:D

[keith nicholas]

Ummm, interesting thread on RR, GB has indeed upset a lot of people, basically because he behaves like a rich bully, and quickly resorts to personal attacks when he starts to loose a reasoned argument. I've personally been in this situation, as has at least one of the senior members of this site :roll:

If Neil wants to defend himself and his business, why doesn't he come here and do it ?, I can make an educated guess. . . . . .

I think I'll introduce myself properly the next time he makes an appearance at my field :twisted:, although I suspect he already knows. . . . . I've heard he "dislikes" me, even though we've only passed the time of day once :roll:janek you had your chance to speak to niel last saturday but chose not to,as far as i know you have had no dealings with niel other than seeing him at the field,i have bought 4 helis from him with no problems and each one was a bargain