slightly OT but i need some business advice...

[Hyde]

i have a HUGE job coming up worth about 24k. its a development company that wants interior/exterior panos of its 24 properties. i also do low-level aerial and quoted them for about 5 fullscreen panos + 2 aerials @ $1500 per property. they said they were thinking more like $1000. i am sure there is room to negotiate.

my question is this. i normally charge $300 per pano for smaller jobs. i am cutting these guys quite a deal. according to 'FotoQuote Pro 5' a 'Web.Components.QuickTime Reality.Ads' for the web goes for $281-$562 for a 1 month run with the 'avg' being $375. but - that's for 1 MONTH. for 1 year it's $632-$1264 with $843 being the 'avg'.

the aerial i am just throwing in to sweeten the deal - but it would more than likely be something like letting them pick 2 outta 15-20 per location for half my normal price of $400 ($200). since there really isn't a FotoQuote price for what we do (and i just avg'd it out based on a number of sites), it's kinda hard to know what the 'industry standard' is. for local 1/4 page web-based ad it's like $150-$300 for 1 month.

i have always shot and sold my stuff as 'royalty free'. i figure you buy the panos or aerial pics and i give them to you to do what you want with them. of course - i still retain the rights but i wonder if i am doing it all wrong. as a professional photographer - i guess you charge by what it is, what it will be used for, how big, and how long you will use it..?

i want to know what you guys do... when you shoot a job do you only let them use it on their site for a period of time and then collect royalties on it if they decide to keep using it or just give it to them? i dont want to run them off, but soo many people seem to advertise that their pricing structure follows the 'fair market value' guidelines set forth in stuff like FotoQuote. i dont want to screw them, but i dont want to get screwed either. what is fair?

i know that if it was for a national ad campaign i wouldn't even be asking cuz that's a no-brainer... but for a local/regional that will be used on primarily their site/brochures i am at a loss. FotoQuote seems awfully freakin' high and unrealistic in its monthly/yearly premiums.

[Art-Tistic]

RULE NUMBER ONE....NEVER!!!! discount your work....if there is room to negotiaite it means your were ripping them off in the first place. When a client tries to haggle price I reply with, "since I can't change the quality of my shooting or editing what would you like me to take out of the package to bring the price down?" Example.....instead of 5 panos and 2 aerials for $1500 give them 3 panos and 1 aerial for $1000.....

Don't let the "big-whale" (24K number) scare you into committing to a lower price, don't be afraid to loose a deal. Your long-term goal should be to establish a reputable name for yourself and a clint base that is willing to pay you for what YOU are worth, and not what they "think" your service is worth...

Remember you are the expert and you provide a special service. They are not only paying for the service but your skills and knowledge.

Just my 2 cents from 15 years of running my own business.


Good luck with the bid,
regards
Ant

[Griffo]

Ant makes an excellent point re. bringing your price down. Don't sell yourself short. You'll regret it in the long run!

[Hyde]

thank you Ant for your reassuring response. initially i was going to do a few more than 5 panos per property and 1-2 aerials for $1500. i was asked what kind of discount were they going to get for giving me that amount of work. i told them (at an informal get together) what i normally charge and that i was thinking of setting up a package deal that would include several panos (didn't give them a number) and a couple of aerials. i was asked 'so what are you thinking it's gonna run price-wise'? and i took a moment and said 'something like $1500 per property'. the person i was talking to kinda had that 'pause' and i (perhaps stupidly) said - 'well, ya know - somewhere between $1000 and $1500' and they said 'yeah, well we were leaning towards $1000'. i said - 'well, lemme shoot the demo and i am sure we can work something out'. afterwards i was told by one of the property managers - 'look - if they want to give you a thousand per property, take it - just don't give them as much for their money. you don't have to kill yourself and do 10x the work for the same amount. they will be happy with a package that is a grand and contains a decent amount of panos/aerials for the money'.

that is basically what you said too. no hard numbers have been thrown out yet until the formal meeting. i know you said i shouldn't discount my work - but when its THAT MANY panos/aerials people tend to want a volume discount. i like how you described what to say to the haggle. i appreciate that insight and will put that into use immediately. i know their job is to lowball me and my job is to try and get what i think is fair. yes - the prospect of a job with those kinds of numbers scares me. but i don't want to be bullied into giving my effort and time away for the sake of the almighty dollar.

but back to the initial question - do you do alot of 'royalty-free' work?

[Art-Tistic]

Hyde,
In responce to the "royalty-free" portion of the question.......

I did a corporate job back in 2003 that lasted for approximately 18 months and yielded me 250K, great job, great money!!! The project was supposed to be used in a "district" in NJ. I have and still sell all my coporate work royalty free but I have the right to use anything I've produced for any form of advetisment I see fit.

So where the hell is this story going????? The campaign went national and my client is still making money selling my DVD's. So now when I price a job I look at what I'm making up front and ask myself "is it enough given the end use" and I adjust my upfront price accordingly.

It's too hard to police the use of your work and legally would be expensive to enforce. So get a happy number upfront and dont look back. Just make sure your contract states that youu have permission to use the work for promotional purposes.

Hope this helps,
Ant

[miami6]

Art-Tistic

great advice thanks