Trex 600 on M1(a123) cells?

[d-bledsoe]

I have a question/ curiosity. I did a search and didn't find any results.
But i was wondering if anyone has thought about giving the dewalt v36 in the form of a 7s2p a try on the stock 600. since a 7s m1 will yeild the same voltage as a 6s emoli, it should work in the stock setup

Based on Geneween's 6s2p emoli tests over on rcgroups it seems that the M1 might be interesting to try.

Im not looking for a cheaper route then lipo or a better route, so let not get into the topic that the 600 is better on lipos, because i already know it will perform a bit better on 6s lipos.

Anyways looking at the 6s2p emoli tests it seems like to me that a 7s2p m1 setup may yeild similar resualts, granted the flight time could be shorter since the a 7s2p m1 pack will have about 4400-4600 mah while a 6s2p emoli will have about 5600mah. But i think the weight difference between the the M1 pack and a emoli pack maybe enough to help offset the smaller capacity of the M1 just a little. if the m1 can yeild similar results as the emoli it seems like a decent option because of the "c" rating, charge rating, as well as flatter discharge curve, not a sharp drop of like the emoli.

I would like to know peoples thoughts on this. my 600 should be arriving as late as next week, and i already have 6s lipos that i will fly with it, but im all for trying new things and since it seems like it should would out the same, or maybe better then emolis what do you all think.

-Derek

[skew]

I thought the M1 cells are only 2300mah? If so it would be very short flight time plus very few chargers currently charge them. For the money its going to be tough to beat the 4400 align packs. The emoli will probly last longer but will cost & weight alittle more.

[d-bledsoe]

Yes teh m1's are about 2300mah but in a 7s2p config they would be about 4600mah and the same voltage as a 6s lipo/emoli. Pack wieght for a 7s2p m1 by my calculations would be 980 grams, compaired to about 850-900grams for the emoli.

not saying one is better or not, just was curious what people thought about the viability of using the m1 cells compaired to the emoli.

It just seems since price is about the same that because of the charge/discharge rating for the m1 it might be fun to try.

[Gscott]

I believe there is also a voltage issue. Last I heard none of the current lipo chargers or balancers worked for those cells since they are 3.6v and not 4.2v.

[d-bledsoe]

Well there is the lipodaptor( http://www.slkelectronics.com/lipodapter/index.htm) that will fool lipo and nihm chargers into charging the m1 cells correctly. Also with a 7s m1 setup the voltage will be the same as a 6s lipo/emoli so you could set the charger for 6s lipo and it should charge the m1's

[Gscott]

Seems like alot of hassle for cells that weren't all that cheap last time I looked. I'm sure you can charge them by "fooling" the charger but you wouldn't be able to balance them with any of the current balancers.

[Bjorn]

I am pretty sure you can balance a fully charged 123 cell pack with flightpower balancers, you will need two for a seven cell pack. It is no problem balancing an empty lipopack with those, i connect the balancer at the same time i connect the charger and since the balancer is a passive one it is no problems balancing while charging, All myfp packs are fully balanced when charging is done...

[scalci]

Check here http://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=16165&highlight=a123

Not sure how the batterys will do in a TREX 600, but maybe worth a try...

Bob, what do you think?

Scalci

[Finless]

No idea but from others that have tried Emoli's they are too heavy and dont provide the power needed. Maybe if you justhover and fly around but for top power for 3D this doesnt work. So I have heard.....

If someone has done this and does good 3D, lets see a video or something.

Bob

[scalci]

Now that sounds good Bob :smokin:

[berthoud]

Ive been flying a 10s a123 in stock formation using the standard align 600l, 12t pinion, HV85 for serveral months now.

I have found these cells to be very durable, inexpensive, and despite my discharging them flat in 3 minutes, holding up fairly well. They enjoy the cooler temps more than lipos and dont seem to mind fast charges at the field (I charge 10s at 4.6 amps, about 25 minutes). Thus far they have required minimal balancing (the majority of my four packs, or 40 cells, not at all).

Perfomance is very good. Probably close to what the FP 6s setups are doing on 13t. I am not sure about the HS, probably around 2200-2300. The motor seems to be the limiting factor as it usually comes down much hotter than the packs. I am running 600 V2's. On my 450 SE I run 3s FP's and the Hacker a20 6xl....the 600 by far has more power and cyclic authority...

I even tried a 15s setup with a Hacker C50 XL. Worked great, better duration (4-430) but was too heavy for my liking. The stock pack weighs about 800 grams (nearly the same as a 6s 4900) so the added weight of the XL and extra 5 cells did not make it worth it (felt more like my old EVO 50).

Considering the price of the packs, safety, ease of use, durability, and chargability I think I will be using these cells in more and more projects. Only time will tell if they will hold up to such abuse.

I wish I had some video but considering the weather now in NW Ohio thats probably going to be a long while off.

[Finless]

Probably close to what the FP 6s setups are doing on 13t.


I see posts like this but honeslty SHOW ME! Lets see some vid of hard 3D with this setup please! After seeing a swift do a 2.5 hard 3D minute flight on emolis and I get 6 on FP's, I just aint buying it... Please prove me wrong.... Shoot a vid please...

BTW I have FLOWN a 10S 600 on flight power 3700 packs. Yes it had more power than a 6S setrup BUT..... it also felt heavier! No way a 10S Emoli setup is going to be lighter than a 10S FP pack setup!

Bob

[berthoud]

I flew Emoli's all spring in a Swift. The a123's will blow those out of the water. The Emoli's pretty much dropped dead after 45 amps. I am pulling, on average, 49 amps out of these packs for 3 minutes and I cant imagine what that goes to with 13 degrees of pitch. I take two packs to the flight line. Fly 3 min, Auto, swap packs, fly 3 min, Auto, charge. 25 minutes later those packs are ready to go again. I have another pair so while those are charging I am flying another 6 minute flight. With 3 pairs I could really go to town...

The a123's have a very flat discharge curve. Once you apply a load to them they drop to that particular voltage and stay there the entire flight and even improve with use! See this graph here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=883612

I have probably 20-30 cycles per pack now (been using them since early October). I have not seen any degradation in performance from the first few cycles. I really do not balance these. When at the field I charge them straight off the heli at 4.5 amps, usually still pretty hot. During the entire flight the power remains very consistent.

Not bad for a $90 pack...time will tell if they hold up....

BTW I know its a completely different setup but this video should demonstrate what these cells will do:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590235&page=8&pp=15


Once the weather breaks I will attempt to get some video. Probably not this weekend, maybe the following weekend... I have tried to get video before but after I load it onto my pc its always like 1 gig worth of video (for 3 minutes...how can I edit it down to 100 megs or so and retain at least some of quality and sound?

[Gscott]

Probably close to what the FP 6s setups are doing on 13t.


BTW I have FLOWN a 10S 600 on flight power 3700 packs. Yes it had more power than a 6S setrup BUT..... it also felt heavier! No way a 10S Emoli setup is going to be lighter than a 10S FP pack setup!

Bob

These are not the Emoli cells. The A123's only weigh 75g each so a 10s pack won't weigh much more than a 6s FP 4900 and alot less than a 10s lipo.

[Finless]

Hmmm OK never heard of a123 so sorry to doubt..... I thought they were the Emoli thing all over again... I guess I am ignorant! :arggg:

BUT I wanna see dang it! If these are better then WHY havent I heard or seen others using them? I do fly with LOTS of people on top of and using the latest and greatest of just about everything going....... Might be the NEXT thing and you guys might be on the edge of the next tech in batts but until I see it...... I have doubts..... Why? Because the Emoli thing was more HYPE than fact and in the end wasnt there.

Again SHOW ME...... :WOW

Bob

[ahperson]

This is just the thing I am looking for. If this prove to be a good alternative to the $300 pack then I am going to get a 600. $100 for a pack sound much better than $300. Three minute flight time suck though. I'm want to get a bigger bird and I am leaning toward a nitro 50 size, but if I can get a 600 and spend $400 for batteries and fly continuous then this is the way to go.

I've read some reports on these batteries and from what i'm seeing they are pretty impressive. The only drawback is the quick decline in power at the end of the pack. Over at RR a guy stated that they have a new module that takes care of this problem. Finless I wish you would look into this so you can inform us of what you find. Here is a link that I read earlier:

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t282172p1/

I know you will find out something and when you do please let us know!

Andre

[ahperson]

berthoud,

Thanks for the info! Is that the max time that you are getting with these batteries and is this doing 3D or just sport flying? Are you in MI or Toledo? I notice you said NW Ohio.

Andre

[Finless]

$100 for a pack sound much better than $300. Three minute flight time suck though.


This is why I question this entire thing! If these things were the BOMB I would think Flight Power, TP, etc would be selling them too....

I wont believe it until I see REAL results.... I wont be fooled again :)

bob

[WillJames]

Lets see a video showing similar performance to even the Align Li-Po setup.

[kgfly]

You can learn all about the A123 M1 cells here: http://www.a123systems.com/html/tech/safety.html

Summary:
* Nominal voltage: 3.3V
* Nominal capacity: 2.3Ah
* Size: cylinder 66mm tall x 26mm diameter
* Core cell weight: 70 grams
* Internal impedance: (1kHz AC) 8 mΩ
* Typical fast charge current: 10A to 3.6V CCCV
* 70A continuous discharge
* 120A, 10 sec pulse discharge:
* Cycle life at 10C discharge, 100% DOD: over 1,000 cycles

Only this one size cell is currently available. Their lower nominal voltage combined with their size and weight mean that they are not suited to micro helis like the T450. A 4S1P 2300 would weigh 280g, about 100g more than a comparable lipo and would be hard to fit unless it was slung underneath the base plate.

However for larger birds like the Swift and T600 there are combinations that seem to be working well enough to keep some pilots happy. The main trade-off for the lower cost, greater robustness, inherent safety (ie greatly reduced fire risk), faster charging and theoretically much greater lifetime is the shorter flight times. As noted above, this can be offset by the 2-for-1 price comparison and fast charging.

Bob's put out the challenge and it will be fun to see the video demos rolling in.

[Finless]

However for larger birds like the Swift and T600 there are combinations that seem to be working well enough to keep some pilots happy.


Not the Swift I saw... it was a HEAVY DOG.... no offense to those using Emolis that say these things are great but it was a TOTAL DOG in my opinion! I know Emolis are not a123 so I have been told above but someone needs to PROVE it...


Bob's put out the challenge and it will be fun to see the video demos rolling in.


Yep... Lets see if they start "rolling" in! I have my doubts but I do enjoy being proven wrong :)

Bob

[kgfly]

Ah yes, it's clear you prefer small, ugly dogs to heavy ones :lol:

[Gscott]

The only video I have seen is from a Logo 10 3D setup on RR. Looks like it has good power but it's hard to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAwoh0r5hI0

I would bet there are more vids over at RC Groups.

[ozace]

I have been flying my 600 on 10 A123 cells for months now.
I run a nue 1512 (1400kv motor). Performance is much the same as the stock motor with 6s strong packs(maybe a touch better) and weight very close.

These new cells are harvested from dewalt 36v drill packs. Chargers are starting to become available with appropriate sotware (e-station 902 for eg).
As with the emoli cells, these require thought to match voltage to motor kv, they dont really just drop in replace lipo sacs.
So far none of these newer safer cells will match a decent lipo for power/weight/performance cell for cell bu tthey can be made to work very well.

When i ran 10 emoli cells with the 1515 nue motor it also worked well , a little heavy for hard 3d and power topped out at 1500 watts but more than enough for good sports performance.

Again for the best performance option a decent set of FP packs will be very hard to better. In my case where i cant fly like alan, jason, bert etc i have more than i can use at 1/2 the cost with a massive saftey advantage.

[Raptor Rulezzz]

a little heavy for hard 3d and power topped out at 1500 watts but more than enough for good sports performance.


Yeah, power is a bit low.. :shock: My T-rex 600CF with 600l peaks at 2440 watts...

I'm going to fly the 600XL tomorrow, weather permitting.

Cheers,

Richard