Anoter T-Rex 600 AP Test.

[lowandslow]

I did some further flight tests this morning with the 600. I figured I’d do a worst case scenario test. I strapped on my HCS Pro 60 mount fully loaded. The mount alone was 4.5lbs. The 6000mah battery I was using is not a high c rated battery (12 -15c) and weighs in at 900g. (Stock Align 4400 is 748g)

AUW was 12.5lbs ready to take pictures.

You could tell the carrier was there for sure. The head speed never dropped below 1900. Over the course of several hard full collective climb outs it pulled a max of 64amps at about 1350 watts. Don’t know how many mah I pulled out of the battery yet but I flew for around 5 minutes. The motor and battery were around 100 - 110 degrees, not very hot at all.

Although at 4.5lbs the 600 appears to carry it with out too much difficulty it is for sure is at the max weight limits. It’s my guess that if you could shave a pound or maybe a little more from the carrier it would be a nice comfortable setup. A Carbon 30P with some attention paid to some weight savings should do the trick.

Once some gearing options become available it will only make it better.

[GGoodrum]

I gotta tell you, you are asking for trouble trying to run this with the stock 6s2p-4200 setup, and this much weight. While it may work, you are putting a tremendous stress on that pack. I alrady think Align made a big mistake, designing a 600-bladed helicopter to run on such a puny power setup. Every other electric helicopter in this size range uses a 10s setup in the 3700-4200 range. With a lower voltage pack trying to do the same work, the current requirements go up. Even with your 6000 mAh capacity pack, you can easily "puff" a cell if you aren't careful. Since it is not one of the newer "hi-C" rated versions, you need to be as gentle as you can, or you will at a minimum drastically reduce the life of this pack.

-- Gary

[lowandslow]

Read what I said Gary.

"Although at 4.5lbs the 600 appears to carry it with out too much difficulty it is for sure is at the max weight limits. It’s my guess that if you could shave a pound or maybe a little more from the carrier it would be a nice comfortable setup. A Carbon 30P with some attention paid to some weight savings should do the trick."

I'm not using the 4200's I'm using the 4400's.

First off the 6000mah pack I used is rated at 72amps continuous 90amps burst. I pulled 64amps on a hard full collective climb out. In a hover and general AP type flying you probably aren't drawing more than 30amps. Most AP photo flights last about 5 minutes.

The battery and motor actually came down cooler with the carrier attached than when I do 6 minutes of sport / 3D.

What I tested was a worst case weight scenario which of course I didn't recommend.

I know you don't like the 600 and think that 10S will save the world but that's simply not the case. There are plenty of people flying 600’s around here already and having a great time with no battery issues. Is the 600 a powerhouse? No. Not everything needs to fly like a top fuel dragster.

[AZ ChopperCam]

I equate the 6s vs 10s debates to somethign like a smaller displacement supercharged/turbo V6 vs. normally aspirated V8. you may get the same power output but the blown V6 is pushing the performance of the engine to the max to make it happen where as with V8 it's just another day on the job.

I prefer high cell counts and low kV motors for heavy AP work. My EVO packs are rated at 100A and I average about 19-23 amps. That'll make those packs last a LONG time.

I don't think Gary thinks 10s will "save the world" but the writing is on the wall. Just watch. Within a few months time you'll see more and more of those Trex600 pilots converting to 10s.

Not saying your 6s setup is wrong.... obviously it flies and you are happy with the results but if I had a Trex600 I'd probably switch to 10s.

[lowandslow]

Gary has been hammering on the 600 since day one “Align made a big mistake.” Some will fly 10S and some will be plenty happy with 6S. I’m sure there are higher profit margins in 10S packs too. A 10S pack is almost double the cost.

I don't want to get off the topic here. I'm simply reporting my results for AP work using the 600 on 6S. It will work and only get better with more gearing and motor options.

[AZ ChopperCam]

cool..... lets see some pics then. have you considered a front mount to shave off about 3.5lb?

[GGoodrum]

Hey, do what you want. I was just trying help you increase the longevity of your packs, that's all. You, like many, are still missing my main point. It has nothing to do, really, with 6s vs 10s, especially with these AP setups that don't push the power systems all that much. What I have a problem with is simply reducing the number of cells in series, without increasing the pack capacity and/or its combined "C" rating. In a 3D-capable machine, this is just asking for trouble. At best, you will shorten the life of the pack. If you are just doing mild sport flying, with limited pitch ranges (< +/- 10 degrees) and headspeeds under 2000 rpm, you might be fine. The highest peaks you'll see may hit 1500W. On the otherhand, in a "real" 3D setup (> 2000 rpm and +/- 12 degrees+...), it is quite easy to hit peaks well over double that amount. Just yesterday, I video'd a flight of Jeff Fassbinder flying a converted Raptor with a Z-Power Z50T and an 11s-3700 Evo 20 configuration. His highest peak hit 3709W ( :shock: ) and 92A. For a 6s setup to reach that level, the current would have to go up to 168A, which for a 4200 pack is 40C. Obviously, a 16C Pro Lite clone is never going to get there. With the new TP 6s-4550 and 6s-4900 FP Evo 20 packs, it is possible to get to 3000W, but this is a combination of much higher C ratings and higher capacity packs.

The problem in a milder setup, where the 4200 and 4400 packs work okay for basic stuff, is the occasion where you have to get out of trouble, and you really yank on it. That's were you will see how strong a battery is, not with a top 3D pilot, with excellent collective management skills, doing a very impressive routine. I have literally hundreds of recorded FDR files and in every setup we've tested it isn't the 3D flights that hit the highest peaks. It's the ones with me crudely yanking the thing around the sky. :) A "max climbout" is not worst-case. If you hit 64A in a climout, you could see a LOT higher number, trying to yank yourself out of too rapid a descent. I have puffed many-a-pack doing exactly that!

Anyway, the point is that I would, and do, caution anybody with a TRex 600 to take it easy if they are using the 4200 and 4400 setups. In your case, youve added 50% more weight. Even your 6000 pack is venerable, in my opinion. It is just that, though, an opinion. You can take it or leave it. :)

-- Gary

[lowandslow]

Thank you. I'm sure companies like TP, FP and others would love to sell every one 10S packs at double the cost for the 600. Just because you run high $$ high voltage liops doesn't necessarily mean longevity.

[GGoodrum]

Again, you are misinformed. It is not a 10s/6s issue. It is about having packs that will last more than 30-40 flights, and will survive the occasional "oops" manuever. For the record, the FP 6s-4900 is $299, and the TP 6s-4550 pack is $279. That's hardly double the price and either will last a lot more than double the number of flights.

Unless you want to hack up the frames, so that any other motor, other than Align's, can be used, a 10s-3700 pack won't be an option, even if it would fit. Also for the record, a 10s-3700 pack is about $395, again, hardly double.

Enough of this. Enjoy your 600, whatever setup you use. I would consider taking DJ up on his offer of a front mount, however, as you could save a ton of extra weight. ;)

-- Gary

[lowandslow]

The front mount sounds interesting and I certainly like the weight saving it offers! My big thing is being able to pull the mount and easily switch it between helicopters. It’s also nice to be able to mount it backwards for more tricky shots. I would be interested in seeing what DJ has for the 600.

A 10S is nearly $400. An Align 4400 is just a bit over $200. I think it remains to be seen how the Align packs will hold up. Like any pack, I think it depends on how you treat them and your flying habits. We’ll see won’t we.

As for hacking the frames, I think the 600 is going to sell like hot cakes. Just like the 450 I think it won't be too long before you see all kinds of 3'rd party motors offered just for the 600.

[GGoodrum]

No doubt, the TRex 600 will be popular, but I think predictions of similar successes that Align has enjoyed with the 450 XL/SE are definitely premature. Big difference between getting a hobby store to set aside a 3-foot rack of parts for the 450, and setting aside the significant amount of space aside for a complete set of spares for the 600. The new Raptor electric will be more successful, in my opinion, because besides the CF frames, there are only seven parts different from a regular V2/SE/Titan Raptor. The rest of the needed parts are already sitting on the shelf at almost every hobby story around the carries helicopters.

A 10s-3700 is not double the price, but you are comparing apples and oranges. Look, it will take I'm guessing about 600W, minimum, to hover your 12 lb TRex 600, with the camera. Probably more, but for comparisons, it doesn't matter. With your 6s-4400 pack, that works out to about 30-32A. That gives you about 7 minute durations, if you are lucky. With a 10s-3700 pack, that same 600W draws about 18-18.5A, which increases your durations up to over 12 minutes. A better comparison would be to your 6s-6000 mAh setup. For that, the current drain is still 30-32A, but with the higher capacity, the durations go up to 11 minutes. Are you now going to tell me your 6s-6000 pack is half the price of a 10s-3700 pack? I think not.

There are plenty of very good motors out there right now, with more on the way. Unfortunately, none of these will fit in the TRex 600's current set of frames. Oh, and if you do want to try something other than 6s, you'll need a new controller, as the Align 75A one included in the 600 is only good to 6s.

-- Gary

[AZ ChopperCam]

I would be interested in seeing what DJ has for the 600

I have nothing now and won't as I probably will never own a Trex 600 but I am always willing to tinker and build a front mount for one if someone wants to part with their 600 for a couple weeks.

you're point of being able to remove the mount and use it on other heli's is a valid one. Something not able to do with a front mount. Curious though.... why the comment about putting the mount on backwards?? just point the heli to the heading you need and snap away! :D

[lowandslow]

All good points. The 6000mah I have is about $239. I think the the 10S is around $400. Not quite half I guess but none the less if you buy three packs you are talking $500 more. Not insignificant by any means even though I guess you could get away with only two packs instead of three if you were getting 12 minutes from a pack.

Just to clarify, there’s no way in hell I’d fly the 600 for AP at 12 lbs. I think I can get that down to about 10.8lbs. I’d be very happy with 7 minute AP flights. I’m rarely in the air for more than 5 at a time anyway. The test I did today was overloaded quite a bit just to see what it could handle.

I guess there’s no real way to tell what the outcome will be with the e-Raptor vs. The Rex 600. I think the 600 will do very well. I hope they both do very well. Trust me, motor options just for the 600 will come.

DJ,

There have been a couple times where space was tight or I needed to be pretty high up. In some cases all be it not that often it's useful / more comfortable to hover tail in with the camera pointing back towards you. I like options for given situations.