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[Casey A. Sigmon]

I need Gyro help!! blade cp belt conversion.Please help!

[Casey A. Sigmon]

I have a Gyro i stole off of a walkera 22a , but i am having problems getting it to work properly. do you think this will work or should i try something else???

[dr5liter]

for flybar i use the eflight cp pros flybar and paddels, they fit perfect, no drilling

[ptremb]

micen2,yes punch out means giving fast,full throttle.Even on slow climbs with full right stick it won't hold(I've stood at the tail and watched the control rod to ensure I had full travel commanded).My experiance so far is unless you have atleast 2.1k+ headspeed the tail won't hold very well.This seams strange as the only thing new is the frame and the rest is all shogun(even the tail blades unless you have the new white ones),but than again the shogun used something like 2.3k head speed(don't quote me on that one,just going from memory on what I've read)

Motor install was a trip to say the least.What I did was route the slots out to 4mm from the 3mm (or what ever it happens to be,don't remember exactly to fit the bolt needed for my motor) with a dremel bit.I than took the correct length allen head screw(socket head cap screw),put it in my drill and ground the head down till the head was just smaller than the edge of the motor mount when installed to prevent hitting the frame on reassy.
Others have stated that the inrunners fit w/o any mods.Maybe the mfg. was figuring on a person taking most of the flight gear from a bcp/hbcp(which uses an inrunner as an upgrade option) and doing a straight swap over.???don't know.

The only thing I have done to my head is take those little P.O.S. 2.5mm set screws that strip if you look at them funny and ding 'em.drilled and tapped for the more common 3mm that uses the same 1.5mm driver as the rest of the frame.All the rest was fine.I haven't heard of anyone having to drill the flybar cage yet.

Not to sound stupid but what tail are you using?,have you counted the teeth to be sure what you have?what are you using for throttle curve?(i'm just currious)
Do a quick calculation on your heli to see if maybe the h/s is to slow like on mine.
The math is as follows
batt volts(11.1 for 3s,7.4 for 2s) * Kv(rating of your motor) * motor pinion / main gear * .85(constant that simulates the rotor load @ max pitch)
so on mine this would be
7.4*4400*10/137*.85=2020rpm or there abouts.If I wasn't so cheap I'd get a set of 3s and be done with it as my motor would give super crazy h/s than.
Now you don't have to put the 40t on if you can gear up the motor to get a bit faster h/s(within reason of course.If you need to put a 13t on than you should get a faster motor as you will be loading it to much and possibly burn it out from the extra heat)

here is a link that shows 2 flying,no 3d though.more flying than the ones on the hd site.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6922262432606774994

How do you like the 14z Dan.I'm suprised at all the issues you had with the µH head and the rep they have with t-rex parts.

Casey A. Sigmon,need more info on what it's doing/not doing.

[micen2]

for flybar i use the eflight cp pros flybar and paddels, they fit perfect, no drilling

CF? steel? mine is smaller than the cp pro cf....and st5ill wouldnt fit. You must have an updated /corrected version...because i called hd...and they told me to drill it ...that was normal.

[micen2]

micen2,yes punch out means giving fast,full throttle.Even on slow climbs with full right stick it won't hold(I've stood at the tail and watched the control rod to ensure I had full travel commanded).My experiance so far is unless you have atleast 2.1k+ headspeed the tail won't hold very well.This seams strange as the only thing new is the frame and the rest is all shogun(even the tail blades unless you have the new white ones),but than again the shogun used something like 2.3k head speed(don't quote me on that one,just going from memory on what I've read)

Motor install was a trip to say the least.What I did was route the slots out to 4mm from the 3mm (or what ever it happens to be,don't remember exactly to fit the bolt needed for my motor) with a dremel bit.I than took the correct length allen head screw(socket head cap screw),put it in my drill and ground the head down till the head was just smaller than the edge of the motor mount when installed to prevent hitting the frame on reassy.
Others have stated that the inrunners fit w/o any mods.Maybe the mfg. was figuring on a person taking most of the flight gear from a bcp/hbcp(which uses an inrunner as an upgrade option) and doing a straight swap over.???don't know.

The only thing I have done to my head is take those little P.O.S. 2.5mm set screws that strip if you look at them funny and ding 'em.drilled and tapped for the more common 3mm that uses the same 1.5mm driver as the rest of the frame.All the rest was fine.I haven't heard of anyone having to drill the flybar cage yet.

Not to sound stupid but what tail are you using?,have you counted the teeth to be sure what you have?what are you using for throttle curve?(i'm just currious)
Do a quick calculation on your heli to see if maybe the h/s is to slow like on mine.
The math is as follows
batt volts(11.1 for 3s,7.4 for 2s) * Kv(rating of your motor) * motor pinion / main gear * .85(constant that simulates the rotor load @ max pitch)
so on mine this would be
7.4*4400*10/137*.85=2020rpm or there abouts.If I wasn't so cheap I'd get a set of 3s and be done with it as my motor would give super crazy h/s than.
Now you don't have to put the 40t on if you can gear up the motor to get a bit faster h/s(within reason of course.If you need to put a 13t on than you should get a faster motor as you will be loading it to much and possibly burn it out from the extra heat)

here is a link that shows 2 flying,no 3d though.more flying than the ones on the hd site.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6922262432606774994

How do you like the 14z Dan.I'm suprised at all the issues you had with the µH head and the rep they have with t-rex parts.

Casey A. Sigmon,need more info on what it's doing/not doing.

I have the softest throttle curve from 0-100 -would barely recover from a fall...more scale flying curves (till I get used to it- then whamo).....a programable brushless at about 38-4000 kv's i reckon...and the 11.1 lipo......w/a nine tooth moto pinion...


ptremb...I hear what you're saying on torque....but, alll this should not bear on wether the tail should hold (even with full mechanical correction) at a stable/constant/consistent headspeed
sounds like you had some similar problems....is yours 4-1...or do you have the same nominal...ratio.....it has to be the belt teeth or the teeth sise from pulley to tail are different...there is no slipping...it's when you turn it manually by hand and count even!

I bought mine as an entire kit/combo. Micen2
...yano...but the belt teeth could be /must be wrong.....3.5:1 I get.....and last time I checked 4x8=32.

[Dan MacKay]

Hi ptrem,

I really like the 14MZ. I have to tell you that I am a rank beginner with all of this but having had a Futaba 6CHP and 7CHP prior to this that this radio is just awesome. Ease of use is excellent. I my profession (a technical diving instructor) I continually chant the mantra of "do not substitute exquipment for skill" to my students but I have to admit that this one made a notable improvement in my flying pretty near from the moment I set it up. My only complaint is btty life. Fortunately it takes the same new Lion bttys that my Nikon D200 uses that I have a sock of anyway so spares is not an issue.

I was surprised by the head as well. It is such a nicely machined head. The difficulty came when they cut some corners and used stock CP parts to finish the kit. Either they should have CAD'd it out a little better of used their own parts I think. Email to them has not garnered a response. I am not surprised as I have tried to contact these guys in the past with no luck. I tried to order my spare parts list for my 450 from them with no luck. I was even in Calgary a week or so ago and they are not even listed in the phone book. I was going to drop by and personally pick some stuff up but it was not to be. They may have a good rep in some circles but vendor who does not wish to be contacted by a customer does not want my money that badly.

Dan

[ptremb]

Oh you havent heard micen2,with the new math they are teaching 4x8=31.99999999999999999 :lol:

Ok, I understand now how you are stating this.I have my 40 in and just did a head revo.got a perfect 5 revo on the tail.(40/8=5)If it dawned on me earlier I would have done that check before I took out the 32 to verify.As far as the belt putting in any variable to the ratio calculation,it won't because the belt acts like an idler,what goes in comes out.If you do the math of 32/3.5:1=9.14(10) depends on if you count the lands or grooves). this may be your problem,you may have the incorrect tail sprocket for the 32t tail drive sprocket.If you put the 40t tail drive sprocket on you would get the 4:1 that is needed.Have you ordered the 40t already?If you have put that in and your problems should be solved.

If not which tail do you have of these?

This is the first tail that was offered
http://www.helidirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=30_36&products_id=1124
This is the second tail that was offered,but w/ swivel ball ends at the grip not fixed as the pix show
http://www.helidirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=30_36&products_id=824
Both of these required that the 8t tail sprocket that was supplied w/ the frame kit be installed in the tail as they are shipped w/ a 10 for use in the shogun(not documented anywhere) w/ a 40t drive,not the 32t drive of the hdx300
This tail has an 8t pressed onto the shaft so theoreticly no change is needed
http://www.helidirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=38_114&products_id=1487

I think another part of your problem may come fron your "soft throttle curve".Your heli setup as the math goes works out to be 2350rpm h/s w/ a 3.8Kv motor.(you have plenty of head speed for this to work,even w/ that tail ratio you should be able to get it up and into a hover).On mine I have a throttle curve of 0,45,90,95,100.this way the head is at what should be the same speed unloaded as when at full pitch loaded(having a tach realy helps out here).This gives the tail a constant speed same as the head and just the pitch changes(on a real heli the head speed stays constant wether loaded/unloaded as does the tail,you want the same on a r/c heli that has collective pitch.Only on a fixed pitch r/c heli do you vary the motor speed for lift).If you have a linear curve like 0,25,50,75,100 what will happen is you won't have the main shaft turning fast enough to feed the tail the speed needed to counter torque when you start to ad in pitch thus increasing the torque generated on the frame making the tail work harder(more pitch to the tail blades) as it's turning to slow to start.

Dan,I'm a firm beliver of get the best you can afford,but I couldn't bring myself to spend that kind of coin,not to mention the lack of w.a.f.(you want to spend how much,for what??If she only knew :dontknow ) I even considered a used 9w but couldn't belive the price they still fetched.Even thought of jumping the fence to jr for a 10x but same reply as to the 14z(though not close to the amount of coin)So I ended up getting a 7chp which worked great,than found out it would only do a 3pt revo and the heli I was trying to use it on realy needed a 5pt(I tried to get more,honest) so I sold it for what I payed for it.Ended up getting a 9chps.This does more than I could possibly need(till I need that extra mixing for 4 engines for the psycho heli :D ) and has some features I think the 7c should have to begin with.No regrets anyways.

[micen2]

hmmm...ptremb I see what you mean...find a headspeed that works...and fly purely colectively..and suffer less torque...makes alot of sense....yano...i know what your explaining with pitch curves...as far as "0,45,90,95,100" that'd be a curve whereas my is linear as it stands...right ...gotit......but I am using (bows head low) the humble radio that came with the cp pro...although it does have a channel five remote duel mode gyro knob, and an idle up throttle collective mix knob.....that would be the knob I need to toy with on this humble,yet coveniently adjustable,e-flite radio....to get the increased pitch and reduced headspeed you suggest....right? hmmm...I feel humbled...I am a great flyer at hover and forward flight as far as imputs go...on the blade pro..but this is a feature I've ignored thus far..flying my unmodded blades....

....I wish you lived close...I'd bring a nice bottle of merlot...and bust your brain cells...on advancing my skills in nominal time...I have a grat mechanical nature...hence the reason I see the fabricating flaws in this kit, and have grieved them so......and yea the ratio is 3.5:1...wish you'd checked it first too. I got my 40....no easy mod...take out the servos....just so I could move those dang pulley bearings...then readjust the tail servo...because ..obviously the belt needed to move forward....sigh...hmm I feel enlightened...will try the tcm knob after battery comes off charger....dont feel like pulling the canopy off and switching the battery....wore out...almost home free...and you may have just opened my eyes to a better colective understanding...I'm humbled by my lack of tech...thanks...will update...hey, are you in america? ...if so ,can I get your tele...I'll call to absorb any charge...yano...it might be how I've got my tr pitch mixing hooked up through the speed controller and the stock e-flite 3 in 1....gasp...cant finger it out.


nope that tcm control is only for stunt mode...but I leave the ground in standard mode witch is a linear curve...hmmm...help. :( oh I could launch it up there confidently...if I knew for certain that it would hold a non peroing flight.....wherin, ifin it didn't..I'd put a few to many panic imputs into the newbird.. lol and trash my hard work. help.

[micen2]

hmmm...also I'm seeing where a diferent tooth moto pinion wou;d be applicable...but man I had to do all that dremeling to the mount ( and the bloody screws) also , just to get it where it is....hmm..

[Dan MacKay]

Today was the first time I really had a chance to fly this thing for a few straight btty packs and of course ended up fixing a few things.

The first was for some silly reason the vertical stab keep coming loose so finally I replaced the stock 4mm cap screws with 6mm, blue locktite and that was that.

Next after the first pack the head was spinning on the shaft with no grip. The 1.5mm grub screws that lock the head were not backing out but the soft steel shaft that comes stock could not handle the torque and would just groove the shaft. I would tighten (as much as I dared with the 1.5mm grub screws and after the next pack the head would be spinning once again. Not to worry; being a clever bear and having ordered a spare hardened steel one as a back up I thought no problem I will just swap it out. Well....the old shaft was so badly scored that a 15 minute job turned into a three hour job as I did not want to pooch the bearings as I had no spares of those. Finally after I got the old shaft out and replaced it with the new one, I tapped the head to take a 3mm grub screw, which in my opinion it should had come with in the first place and away we went again. Outside I went and the third btty pack went just great no problems in flight and none that I could determine after. Dare I hope that it is finally done.

Just a quick question though. I noticed on the starboard guide pulley that there was some rubber build up from the back of the belt. This is the return pulley. There was not a lot and the back of the belt still looks fine but I was just wondering if anyone else has encountered this? I am going to treat the belt before I fly it again. I thought that maybe belt tension might be an issue.

Dan

[ptremb]

micen2,I think you may have the grasp of my explination,but it's increased head speed before pitch.You want to have a nonlinear throttle curve so that by the time you get to center stick you have the rotors turning at the "almost" top speed available,as there is no collective pitch yet (0° pitch) you don't want to have full rpm on an unloaded motor(you can but not very good for it).This shouldn't stop you from flying though.Lets see if a work around can be made.

I d/l'd the bcpp manual,looking at pg 31(this way you can see what I'm saying),The bcpp has a type of throttle curve"programed into it in"stunt/idle-up"only",unfortunatly you can't adjust it in normal,it's just there.
This is what you want to do.Throttle up to center stick but don't go any more,flip the idle-up switch and than dial up the "tcm knob" to midway from full ccw.Now what is this doing for you,you ask?You have now just made a nonlinear curve.In "normal mode" you have 0,25,50,75,100 we don't want that.What we now have is 0,25,50(idle-up switch flip,dial to mid,so this 50 now becomes 80)80,90,100(in actuality what you have is 100,90,80,90,100 when you flip the idle-up switch).These steps will give you the desired head speed needed for lift off and flight(may have to tinker a little,little more cw or ccw to find the sweet spot,this is where a tach comes into play).Now for the side effect,if something happens(crash/loss of control/ect) don't slam the throttle stick down as you will now have full throttle and full negitive pitch,this will drive the heli into the ground(I'm not trying to scare you,just inform you.Flip out of idle-up the moment you realize you can't regain control before the unfortunate happens,but you proably know this already)

As far as changing the tail drive pulley,I didn't remove anything but the links between the swash & head,and the links between the servo & swash.Loosen the tail boom and push in,loosen the main gear auto collar & tail drive sprocket set screws than lift the head/shaft assy. up off the main gear enough to get the main gear out ,slide the drive sprocket out,slide the new in feeding the belt around,than put the main gear back in,than feed the head/shaft down.tighten the drive & auto collar.pull the boom out for the belt tension.No need to move the tail servo unless the servo mount hit the boom block.The tail servo will only have one spot that is correct regardless of the boom placement for belt tension

Next on the agenda,how do you have the tail servo hooked up?What gyro are you using?I see you are using the 3in1.Is this the 6ch rx w/ the 2esc & gyro/mixer unit bolted on?I'm in need of enlightening on your hookup.

I wouldn't change the pinion just yet as the math dictates a sufficient speed at this time.
I live in New Hampshire.However I work second shift.Thats the reason my posts are in the weeeeeee hours of the morning,only have the weekends.Just pm me

Dan,I noticed the same w/ mine,ended up pulling the frame completly apart(what a P.I.T.A.) so I could file the shaft to remove the burrs.I put some flats on the shaft + the 3mm setscrews in the head and the tail drive sprocket(32t at the time,the 40t has 3mm stock).Also saw the rubber on the guide rollers even before putting power to it,it may just be the type of rubber they used to make the belt.I just take a look at the belt before each flight.If it looks like it is starting to delaminate or peel I'll change it.

[micen2]

hmmm...What a crap radio...I can't imagine a very clean take off....throw it in to stunt mode (lol) then the whole heli jerks....I like to spool up slowly....see the regular blade pro...was no where near as much wieght....so it would take off smoothly with less tork/pitch.

yea I have the three in one...and I believe it's all correct...just realized that tcm doesnt work in normal mode...sucks...cause I 'm a normal guy.

yea I can remember to flick the switch off...already flew in that mode a few times...

is that momentary switch on the tcm side...a toggle for trainer? I didn't see what it does in the book..I dont need it if so..

yea ..three in one...bolted...I did it all by the book...even got my telebee gyro with remote duel mode functioning....yes , even on the radio control too ;)

the reason I had to move the servos...is that I had to move my tensioners back to the back space...see... ;)and as for the tail....ehhhem...yea it hit the gyro mount, which in turn hit the boomblock...sigh..was trying to keep wieght forward.

9 tooth...hmm that's what I thought....the thing is ...I'm getting alot of ground effect...and have only jotted up to a safe hieght of 15 inches or so...before shutting it down...piroing all over...
..nah...it's tork...the gyro is correct. Gyro is squared away and functioning...just the same full mechanical cannot compensate...need proper mixing like you said. Let me ask you this though....the throttle trim...should I program my esc with the thr trim in center...or leave it down at the bottom....(where the book has reccommended it to be- or is that only for that fixed tail pitch rotor?- or non esc setup?-or does it stay down? I would think for this heli ,thr trim goes in the center...but I'm asking)

I tried what your saying last night...but two things...Im inside...(freezing cold out- would affect the gyro as well)...second ground effect doesnt intimidate me....but this idea of jumping up..and piro in the house does...lol...even outside though...I don;'t want to blow all my work.

also this heading hold mode on the gyro is understandable (and useful in flight I see)...but diferent feel than I'm used to

for taking off.....

(mechanical assist to gyro- plus I don't like the gain so tight- I like alittle piloting stick available there- feels softer with more natural flight mechanics than watching the stock gyro jerking my bird ..lol...lol rofl ...sorry..I cant believe I wrote that ha)
I'm used to cranking the rudder stick until I've cleared the ground effect...but if you do that with hh gyro mode...you lock it in a rotation...

....and in standard mode...it seems even mechanicly (by stick) assisting to have little effect on/against the tork factor/dilema.



and yea...that rubber on the pulley tesioners seems normal....I am not too tight. (prolly just right)..but even from just spooling it up on the ground see the same marks.

Oh yea...I have the hd motor and sonix...telebee... stock cp pro radio and an e-sky servo....(i don't want to sink a fortune into this right now- looking ahead to a much larger,. and more stable bird...but need more collective/mixing skills first)

and yea my head is floating center of main shaft...neg and pos pitch are all ago..and both blades are equally pitched....I have it set so that there is a little positive pitch at 0 servo...like a few degrees...(I don't need full negative right now , although the way it's set...I bout get a full negative 12o......
(I knew yopu might be thinking...hmmm...I wonder how well this guys head is set up...seems pretty good...just an everslight tilt forward on the swash to compensate for imbalance issues....so i don't need trim.)


I appreciate your help ptremb...Micen2

[micen2]

nope....I can see I need to set a few degrees negative ...or at least 0 at 0...like the book shows ...because a few degrees pos at startup......makes her jump when switching to stuntmode....adjusting that now..............

[micen2]

yep...that was it...too much pitch not enough headspeed.....mmm...see my reasoning is kinda like this......

when you're working in an old house , leave your level and square in the truck (jokingly)

it seems the same with helis....if you think you know flight mechanics....you don't. lol.......

alright now....I gotta set up the gyro better...I'll tell you what sucks...is having onboard trim to set the creep.....it's too easy to bump it....now I think I see the need for subtrim....;)


so ptremb....I know your tail servo is not supposed to scrub/buzz out before endpoints....I don't see how on this radio I would adjust endpoints....so It would seem mechanicly...that I need to get it as close as posible to 90 and no buzz at endpoints....would this hugley afect the gyro? it seems it is....

I'll put a video clip link in a minute to my test flight...short and sweet...wants to piro...creep is dialed in ...gain seems on the fence...but I think those rod-bowing points..(no digital endpoints) are cramping the gyro's thinking, and causing piros...does that sound potentially accurate? it would seem...to me...mechanicly...i've got to large of tolerances on the rudder rod...lots of buzzing at bout half stick....yea..i'll try moving the rod in on the bell....that makes sense.

plus the ball end seems too tight on the rod....mybe time to ream it a bit for a more silky servo response...it may be trying to correct that as well...and finding confusion therein.

[micen2]

my toes are curling...my first scatch build is almost fully airbourne....ahhh.... :? easy does it man... :shock:

try this link...that filelodge is full-o spam...
here this one shows my flying capabilities...told ya...

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1343796769

and this one shows my scratch/kitbuilt incapabilities..lol...I do think the gyro's glitching cause the rod "bottoms out" on either end...moving it in the bell now...

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1343813238

I can see how much lighter the cp pro is....lol...I'm gonna have to get over this headspeed intimidation...if I want to build and fly a 10 pounder..lol


yano what it is...it's that the crash is more detrimental on the heavier birds....those blades and honeybees can be flown straight into a telephonepole and still fly away real wobbly like..lol


alright servo's corected....head lock is working superbly..altho not shown in this clip...but..this clip is in standard mode...

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1344041469

ptremb...why so jerky do you think...?
(the jerk can be seen at the 'very end' of this short clip- you'll see it)


lets see ...what things might you need to know...uhh well.. there is not flybar wieghts...the blades are new..not chewed up...both blades tend to be within an extremely tolerable and paralell pitch...the gyro is in standard mode and the ch5 remote is balanced on the sweetspot..

uh , hmm...slightly back heavy...(but I would think a bit of forward cyclic woulda comp-d for that)...oh yea..and the most distressing part....drops a battery in a minute and a half..indoors hovering!....

so..battery and that flying on a string look??? help...thanks ptremb for your humility and time...to a rookie like myself.

also mentionable, wether or not relevant..is that the red/green led on the stock 3-1 is bottoming red quickly. don't know if that matters or not.

[Casey A. Sigmon]

I ve got the blade cp belt conversion, but i am having trouble with the gyro.
At max Gain the nose still goes left. It's a gyro off of a Walkera Dragonfly 22a.
should use another? what kind? can anyone who's got theres up help? thanks. :arggg:

[Casey A. Sigmon]

3200 kv Brushless, align 25amp esc, Stock blade head and plastic tail (junk).
I still have to get the alum. head and tail assembly. My gyro dosen't have head locking on it. does it need to be??

[micen2]

3200 kv Brushless, align 25amp esc, Stock blade head and plastic tail (junk).
I still have to get the alum. head and tail assembly. My gyro dosen't have head locking on it. does it need to be??

is it a dual mode/rate gyro?...if you have the blade pro..cp radio you can control it from that ch5 knob...mid is gyro off...counterclkwse is standard 1-100..and clkwse is 1-100 headlock..took me a minute to figure it out. also to mention...that rod needs not to bottom out at all...or the gyro will act up...also temp changes in to outside etc..will bog it...if you have the remote knob/control on your radio...and the additional single wire remote lead from the gyro into the reciever ch5, then you can turn up your gyro to 100 percent and control it from the radio.

[micen2]

How does the thrust load from the belt pulley and main gear get transfered up to the lower mainshaft inner race. There must be some kind of spacer that I haven't seen in any pictures yet.

I had the same concern. When assembled, the main shaft did not turn as smoothly as I felt it should. The upper retaining collar has a “stepped” collar but it seemed too large to ride only on the inner race. Both the belt drive pulley and the upper retaining collar appeared to have rub marks on them from the support tube. I took a couple of spare stepped washers from the blade shaft assembly that I had laying around and used them as thrust washers on each bearing. The washers fit the shaft perfectly. Now the whole main shaft assembly rotates smooth as silk.

yea..my junk is sticking too...I think i need some step washers too...problem is...the space left on the shaft is minimal...I need that bottom auto to bite fully.

[Casey A. Sigmon]

Micen2, not sure i dont know

ive almost got it but i had to put over fifty degrees deflection to counter the torque.
the gyro seems to be working now. i think i didn't have enough right yaw to counter the left pull. i have a jr 9103 radio im putting on it this weekend, but now im using a walkera radio it has 2 knobs plt,pzt but icant see any effect. i have the stock blade radio but its not the dame as the pro. digtal servos with the jr radio and recevier should help. not sure bit i think the plt is the ptch limiter for idle up.
not sure enlighten me please. :noteworthy

[micen2]

not a clue brother. i will say this though....get that end slop outa the pushrod...and find the right spots on the bell end and the servo etc....also get any drift/creeping out of the servo using your trim....I am seeing mine varies in temp change...its damn cold out though...let the heli sit outside for a stint (on) to acclimate...watch finless' vids at the begining to set up a gyro... ptremb could help better...but he wont post till much later tonite...I left him a ton of updates and rants...


say casey...did you read my trials and journaling there....heres a tip...check your pitch...you want 0 or just under ...so the headsped can build up....I was having the same problem....spinning stick hard to left..etc...try making sure when your throttle is down you are at 0 ...I am actually at -1...with throttle at 0...works good that way....assuming you are using ccpm blade head.. ptremb enlightened me on that note...what happens is you get to light on your feet before the head can build up a stable rotation/stabilizing effect/gyroscopic action...ptremb...thanks! headspeed before pitch is important.

mines flying now......but uh ptremb (lol at all my updates) that woodpecker effect...could that be the softness in the dampening durometer.....?? seems squishy. I'll post a clip.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1344793725 actually there was a much better maiden voyage than this...where I was toying with full headlock...nice feature...man you could flow with that effect....here is hh gyro on a softer setting.

[ptremb]

micen2,When using the stock tx it's a "must" that you have 0° at center stick in idle-up.If you have any pitch that is positive at that point you will have a bad jump when you flip the idle-up switch.If you look back at the book on pg31 you will see that at 1/2 stick in "normal" you already have about 6° pitch going.This is the theoreticle amount to hover.On a motor driven tail this is fine since the tail can "speed up" conciderably to compensate for the increased torque on the frame from pitch at lower head speed.On a belt driven tail you don't have the ability to change the tail blade speed at will,only the tail pitch,so if you can't produce enough tail pitch for the speed given,extra torque of main blade pitch at lower head speed(this is why we want almost max h/s) the heli rotates no matter what you try because you have no more thrust available at the tail because you have max tail pitch,you now need tail speed.what you can try is instead of half stick try at just under half that way you don't have as much positive pitch on the flip to cut down on the jumping.This is an unfortunate draw back of the stock tx,no adjustments when using it on anything but a "stock" heli.

On the gyro issue,if you don't have any revo mix(this is the "mix/proportional pot on the stock rx) the tail will always spin unless you counter with constant stick input.I would leave the gyro in head hold and change the gain up/down to a point that feels good to you.If you like to fly the tail set it low,if you don't feel like chasing set it high.You don't realy have to add in any tail command at liftoff in hh mode.If you do be ginger on the stick,only long,hard deflections of the stick will cause the gyro to think you want to be looking at the nose till you clear the ground friction.If the tail is imbalanced you can get the woodpecker motion you mention,also check your head for being to tight.if you put to many shims in you will take out all the damping and the rotor disk will throw the body around.just to ask,are the blades balanced?I know you stated that they are new,but one may be heaver than the other,will also cause this.

On the tail issue,do it in this order(I don't know how much you know exactly so don't take this as an insult.I'm going to just lay it out.use it as a double check if you will).DISABLE THE MAIN MOTOR TO PREVENT SUDDEN ROTOR MOVEMENT AND POSSIBLE INJURY.Don't mean to yell but this is very important as you will be moving the tx sticks and I don't want to see any blood.Remove the tail push rod first.set the gyro in std mode,no gain,rudder trim in center and place the horn in the most 90° position available.If it's a little twards the body that is better than twards the tail.
1)Follow the gyro setup procedure as per finless's vid(same gyro,different name)to remove the drift.only do this part for now.
2)Now that the drift part is removed as much as possible,go back to std mode no gain,BUT don't move the trim.this is no longer a trim function it's a drift function.Flip both tail blades to the same side,Move the tail slider from full neg. to full pos. and measure the V made.You should have an equal measurement when the rod is pushed to the tail case than pulled to the body(this means nothing at the moment,just keep it in mind for later).reconnect the tail push rod to the horn.Now slide the tail servo fwd/aft as needed to bring the tail blades together so that when looking down the boom from the rear you only see 1 blade(no V.this means you have pitch on the tail blades,you want no pitch on the tail blades at center rudder stick w/ no tail speed.
Now for the tricky part.this may take some thinking.now that the gyro is set for no drift and the servo is set for no tail pitch we need to set the max throw.
3)gyro still in std mode no gain,remove the push rod one more time.now move the rudder stick full right and get something to keep it there.Now move the tail push rod in the same direction to full deflection(we are at max pitch to counter torque in this position).see what hole on the horn lines up with the hole in the rod ball.this is your max mechanical throw(don't put the screw in just yet) to prevent binding.make a mark.Now go to full left stick and keep it there,pull your rod to the max deflection.Is the hole in the ball at the mark you made earlier?
If yes,put the screw in and your done.this means we have equal pitch in both positive and negitive tail throw

If no,is the ball closer to the body than mark?
if yes,put the screw in and your done.We aren't concerned to much w/ crazy neg tail pitch as long as you get some w/o binding as the torque will rotate the heli to the nose left anyways.

If no,the mark is closer to the body than the ball than this means we either did something wrong(tail not exactly centered,tail slider not allowing even throw) or there is something bent/binding.take a look over to be sure.If there is no issues found make a new mark at this point.flip back to right stick and see how much travel we will loose from the new mark to the full deflection.if it's less than 1/16" movement of the tail slider measured on the tail shaft,put the screw in and your done.If it's more than 1/16" split the distance between the first and second mark.this is where you want to put the screw in.

now if you find that the mark you made is in a spot that has no hole,and has enough meat to support a hole drill and screw.If the mark is just above a hole and won't support drilling use the hole.If the mark is just under a hole you can use the hole and suffer slight binding or drop slightly and drill a new hole.

If you find that the tail seems way off between pos&neg throw we can correct this,but it will mean redoing step2&3.if it gets to this point I will explain at that time as it's complicated and I don't have the time at the moment.

Next issue,flight time.what size batt are you using?(ie 3s 1350mA 10c)

Casey,I would have to recomend that you wait till you get your JR equipment as that will help emensly.as far as the gyro issue that is explained above.you need to have revo mix for a standard rate gyro.


If I forgot anything or something dosen't make sense let me know,I'll try to get to it tomorrow

[micen2]

ptremb....

firstly I dont take unkindly to any good advice...

I wish the local hobby shop guy were as bigbrotherly with the art of heli-ing as you've been...people are stuffy on both ends...some dont want knowledge...some wont share it....sigh ...you're fine bro...no worries

...so did you see that last clip...it's one of the first flights...coulple little horizontal piros...and some agressive slopping...but not at a 3d level yet....i need to get a sim...i learned purely on helis...man what an expensive way to learn...not going there with 3d...on this cnc piece.

did set up the servo nice finally...need a ball sizing tool though...the maverick one prolly wont ddo micro ball ends right.?.prolly need a smaller tip. and with that headlock on heavy...your heli can glide like a shark through the water...real self flying. neat feature that remote knob on the humble cp pro radio.

i do need those step washers though...where can i score them? someone said off the cp pro they stole em...but I dont see where...maybe in the head dampening? hmm yea maybe in there...

the battery(s) are the stock lipo from e-flite...only 800mah...maybe to small...?? no? alot heavier heli than the cp pro. flight time is about 4 minutes ...a minute and a half was an exageration...but 4 ?? pfft common...to little...what is the optimum range for this wieght heli...I have the 18 amp sonix esc....and the stock reciever/3-1. dont want to toast it...but mah shouldnt matter right?...only add performance and flight time.

no I dont need stunt mode...got the blades just a equal skosch under 0, at 0....like... neg 1...works out perfect.... ;) I'll post a better video...when it's not raining or 39 degrees out...lol

hdx300 (battery was dying at this point)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1344793725


this is my latest ( watch next vid clip for glitch...and power drop..happens on fresh batt....esc?? shutdown??) and only prob keeping me from flying....it might not be the battery.....it might be the esc or 3-1 overheating...nothing feels to hot.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1349827233

this is with two different and very new packs....using that stock e-flite ballance charger..which is perfectly matched to that 800 mah battery...I am however powering it with a multi volt dc (radio shack) pack set on the recommended 12v-15v...I have it on 12....i dunno...lets see...the pack says only a 600 mA current...........but the e-flite ballance charger is gonna put out what it does..and when it says charged, and the light goes out, it is...right? eflite charger says...input 11.5-15vdc...output .8 A
It gives no recommend as to mA from the power pack (either from the book or the writing on the charger) just states that, tip is positive, and volts are 11.5-15... so I 'm thinking it's the esc from hd....the seller recommends an "ubec" to go with it...to keep it from overheating...but it's not hot at use ...just warm.


so trouble shoot....

sonix esc possible ?seller recommended ubec? anyone? seems the esc should complete itself...ubec seems to be for larger battery packs

pack/charger 600 mA pack possible problem

batteries doubt it

3-1 possible...but doubtful maybe the esc and or 3-1 are canceling each other out and causing shutdown...??

motor not likely-motor seems fine

radio dont suspect it- it's definately a power loss/ lack therof /glitch/ shutdown


main suspect ....maybe batteries not charging fully...?? flew many full and long flights on this charger and packs with the cp pro...thats why it's possible that it's the helis electronics.



anyone else having this same problem?? Micen2


oh...and yes I did disable the bec lead from the esc...into the blade reciever/3-1...so it's not that...

[ptremb]

Step washers,used on the blade grips,unfortunatly the only way to get them if you don't have a plastic head to rob from is buy a new set of blade grips.

Battery,as you have found the stock 800mA is to small and won't allow for any kind of flight time.What I've found from reading is the 1300mA,15-20c is the one to use,10-15 min depending on how you fly.You can go more(1500 or 1800)for longer flight time but gain a weight penalty,which is fine for sport flying but not 3d.

Glitch,how often does it happen and is it something that is created at the same time,say when you have been flying for a bit,first thing,up close/far away.this may also be the lipo protection kicking in,If you listen close the rotor speed dosen't come back up to the same as before the sudden power loss
You also mention an external bec.If you look at the specs of almost all speed controllers they list 3 servos on the onboard bec when used on 3s batts.this is fine for a plane but bad for a heli.This takes no account for the tail servo or gyro.This is kinda a crapshoot.some have no issues others have issues.Myself,I prefer to not tempt fate and am using an overkill unit.
( http://www.helidirect.com/product_info.php?products_id=1628 )

Charger,you sound ok here.One thing you can do is check the cell volts after a charge.Do you have a volt meter?If so on your balance plug check between pin1 -pin2,you should have 4.2v +-.05v. do this on all pins.(2-3,3-4)the difference between cells should be no more than .1v.If you have more like.2-.5(or more)I would recomend a new charger.(this can also lead to a problem w/ flight times,early battery death)

looks like it's coming along well for you,just a few minor issues to work out yet.I have no idea on the ball end sizer.

a few things that you might want to think about doing to make life/flying more enjoyable.
Pickup a new rx.You are carrying around the weight of the 3in1 unit that isn't being utilized(put it back in the bcpp)all you need is a standard 6ch rx.The esc and gyro take care of everything,no mixer needed no proportional needed,you just need to be able to control the servo's.any negitive/auto shift rx will work w/ the stock tx just make sure you get the crystal for your chanel at the same time.This way you can than fly both the bcpp & hdx.If one goes down you don't have to strip parts to fly
Pickup a new tx(or used is fine)anything negitive shift capable,something computerized.this way you can setup the radio instead of tinkering w/ the heli to get it to fly the way you want.Setup the heli once and if it doesn't do what you want push a few buttons to change it.think adjustable throttle & pitch curves,subtrim.