Renfield
08-16-2006, 12:24 PM
Hi Scott,
Definitely NOT trying to have a war here either. Group hugs all around. Thanks for your input. As I said earlier, I mean this all in the nicest way possible. Maybe my perspective is different from everyone on this board. But it is no less valid. In many ways, I happen to think it is even more valid. If I was doing it all wrong, I wouldn't still be doing it for a living.
Allow me to address some of your points.
Let's say enigma shoots a golf course and only charges $50 instead of giving it away for free.
Is that any better than giving it away in your eyes?
I think you would say it has the same effect as giving it away as it will only hurt the market and his business.
Sounds to me like enigma is just trying to start a business on the side.
If Enigma had done the golf course with his $7 camera, I'd say $50 might be a good return. lowandslow is the one who gave away the whole golf course for the "opportunity" to photograph it. I call that very bad business practice.
In fact, even though Enigma started the thread and garnered my initial response, I'm even more shocked at lowandslow's efforts.
His business would be improved by receiving compensation for his work. How he prices that work is what we're debating. He thinks it's so worthless that he has to give it away to get customers. When said course owner decides he would like to add an aerial of the 9th hole, will he expect to pay or get another free ride? I suspect if lowandslow quotes that guy a reasonable price, he'll go elsewhere.
26 years ago when you started your photography career, did you charge the same rates (relatively speaking) as you do today?
Relatively speaking, it's hard to say. I did freelance work while in college that was well below what I charge today. But it was never free. My first real job was a staff position with the L.A. Daily News back in 1980, so it doesn't really count. But ten years ago when I left newspaper work and started doing commercial photography, I charged what others in the area were charging. I did this because it is good business practice, and because I believe I can compete on more than just price. It then fell on me to deliver a product worthy of that price. Guess it must've worked.
If I had started with local agencies doing bottom end work, that's what I would be pidgeon-holed in and doing today. Whenever they had a job with no budget, they'd have called me. Instead, they call with jobs that pay well.
One of our local competitors used to do high end scanning. When film went away, his daddy bought him $60K worth of digital equipment and now he's a photographer. Clients take him business that must be done on the cheap, and he's usually swamped with work. But he's never made a profit, and if not for his rich relations would've been out of business years ago.
It's unfortunate that I have no golden goose to support me. It means I have to do all kinds of disgusting stuff like cold calling. But it beats the he11 out of working for someone else any day of the year.
This is a tough, competitive business. And like many jobs, it hasn't fared well over the years in terms of keeping up with inflation. Industry pricing is a whole separate issue that you can debate once you finally start charging something.
Now if you're just starting out and you cut them a "deal" to get your foot in the door, they will come back to you, and you can adjust your prices in the future.
This makes zero sense, and any successful photographer will tell you why. By giving it away, you've established a baseline value that this particular "client" will expect in the future.
Take your own example of the spec work that was refused. If you'd given him the 8x10's, do you really think he'd be calling again later - anxious to pay?
Be honest and tell us all how many "free" clients you've converted to paying top dollar? At least in the commercial business, once your price is established it is very hard to raise. I've been to multiple seminars on both coasts that warn against starting low. It just doesn't work.
These same business practices that pros have relied on for years work just as well for hobbyists. If you're not careful, following them could turn your hobby into a livelyhood.
Only difference I see is that you have your 26 years of experience and don't like what you hear he is doing.
Sorry to give that impression. I'm glad he's having fun. I would like to see Enigma, and everyone else on this forum, make enough with their hobby to afford the heli AP setup of their wet dreams and not have to bemoan doing "AP on a budget."
When commercial photography is no longer profitable, I will move on. Similarly, if I cannot sell my RCAP images once I've started marketing them, they'll never leave my hard drive.
Another little aside, when I was photo editor at my last newspaper, I hammered home this same philosophy to my staff. Here's a group of young, energetic photographers with a bag full of free high-end photo gear, all the film and paper they could use, and a full color darkroom facility open to them 24-7. They could easily have out priced everyone in town, as they had ZERO overhead.
Instead, they made good money freelancing, and all the local photographers still placed ads in our paper and refrained from mail bombing the staff.
It's what I like to call win-win, it's the opposite of what lowandslow did, and it's just good business practice.
Bygones,
George
Definitely NOT trying to have a war here either. Group hugs all around. Thanks for your input. As I said earlier, I mean this all in the nicest way possible. Maybe my perspective is different from everyone on this board. But it is no less valid. In many ways, I happen to think it is even more valid. If I was doing it all wrong, I wouldn't still be doing it for a living.
Allow me to address some of your points.
Let's say enigma shoots a golf course and only charges $50 instead of giving it away for free.
Is that any better than giving it away in your eyes?
I think you would say it has the same effect as giving it away as it will only hurt the market and his business.
Sounds to me like enigma is just trying to start a business on the side.
If Enigma had done the golf course with his $7 camera, I'd say $50 might be a good return. lowandslow is the one who gave away the whole golf course for the "opportunity" to photograph it. I call that very bad business practice.
In fact, even though Enigma started the thread and garnered my initial response, I'm even more shocked at lowandslow's efforts.
His business would be improved by receiving compensation for his work. How he prices that work is what we're debating. He thinks it's so worthless that he has to give it away to get customers. When said course owner decides he would like to add an aerial of the 9th hole, will he expect to pay or get another free ride? I suspect if lowandslow quotes that guy a reasonable price, he'll go elsewhere.
26 years ago when you started your photography career, did you charge the same rates (relatively speaking) as you do today?
Relatively speaking, it's hard to say. I did freelance work while in college that was well below what I charge today. But it was never free. My first real job was a staff position with the L.A. Daily News back in 1980, so it doesn't really count. But ten years ago when I left newspaper work and started doing commercial photography, I charged what others in the area were charging. I did this because it is good business practice, and because I believe I can compete on more than just price. It then fell on me to deliver a product worthy of that price. Guess it must've worked.
If I had started with local agencies doing bottom end work, that's what I would be pidgeon-holed in and doing today. Whenever they had a job with no budget, they'd have called me. Instead, they call with jobs that pay well.
One of our local competitors used to do high end scanning. When film went away, his daddy bought him $60K worth of digital equipment and now he's a photographer. Clients take him business that must be done on the cheap, and he's usually swamped with work. But he's never made a profit, and if not for his rich relations would've been out of business years ago.
It's unfortunate that I have no golden goose to support me. It means I have to do all kinds of disgusting stuff like cold calling. But it beats the he11 out of working for someone else any day of the year.
This is a tough, competitive business. And like many jobs, it hasn't fared well over the years in terms of keeping up with inflation. Industry pricing is a whole separate issue that you can debate once you finally start charging something.
Now if you're just starting out and you cut them a "deal" to get your foot in the door, they will come back to you, and you can adjust your prices in the future.
This makes zero sense, and any successful photographer will tell you why. By giving it away, you've established a baseline value that this particular "client" will expect in the future.
Take your own example of the spec work that was refused. If you'd given him the 8x10's, do you really think he'd be calling again later - anxious to pay?
Be honest and tell us all how many "free" clients you've converted to paying top dollar? At least in the commercial business, once your price is established it is very hard to raise. I've been to multiple seminars on both coasts that warn against starting low. It just doesn't work.
These same business practices that pros have relied on for years work just as well for hobbyists. If you're not careful, following them could turn your hobby into a livelyhood.
Only difference I see is that you have your 26 years of experience and don't like what you hear he is doing.
Sorry to give that impression. I'm glad he's having fun. I would like to see Enigma, and everyone else on this forum, make enough with their hobby to afford the heli AP setup of their wet dreams and not have to bemoan doing "AP on a budget."
When commercial photography is no longer profitable, I will move on. Similarly, if I cannot sell my RCAP images once I've started marketing them, they'll never leave my hard drive.
Another little aside, when I was photo editor at my last newspaper, I hammered home this same philosophy to my staff. Here's a group of young, energetic photographers with a bag full of free high-end photo gear, all the film and paper they could use, and a full color darkroom facility open to them 24-7. They could easily have out priced everyone in town, as they had ZERO overhead.
Instead, they made good money freelancing, and all the local photographers still placed ads in our paper and refrained from mail bombing the staff.
It's what I like to call win-win, it's the opposite of what lowandslow did, and it's just good business practice.
Bygones,
George