AP on a budget

[enigma]

Well, I got hooked up with a Realtor that owns a Reality company, a home construction company, six Subways and a strip mall, and he loves the pictures I took of his house (free of charge :wink: ). He wants me to take aerials of new home progress, listing photos, gift photos and new subdivision progress photos. The Trex isn't going to handle it! I am underfunded so i have to improvise until the money starts coming in, he offered some start up cash but I don't take money before work is done, too easy to get lazy. So here's my starter rig, logo 10 with homemade mount, cheap but precise camera, homemade video downlink consisting of radio and partial receiver from a old hummingbird, wireless video camera and small casio handheld TV. My wife runs the camera and I just fly for her. First tests show the A30-8XL on 5 emolis and a 20 T pinion is pulling around 2300 mah in a 7 minute flight (plus a solid minute of spool up, damn Hacker ESC). The rubber bands act to keep the vibes down of the hanging mount, seem to have it worked out so far, a little more adjusting...

[Brady Longmore]

hey whatever you gotta do man! :glasses:

[Renfield]

he loves the pictures I took of his house (free of charge ).

Everyone loves the pictures you take for free.

The best measure of success is how much they like the one's they paid dearly for. This "client" obviously has no budget constraints.

But this explains your budget problem. Two people working for free is, like, half as profitable as one person working for free. :lol:

Well, I got hooked up with a Realtor that owns a Reality company

Reality has so little to do with realty. :roll: :D (sorry, couldn't resist)

Nice pix. Do you plan to charge for your services at some point?

I would've considered his "startup money" as payment for the home photo you've delivered. Or if it's a LOT of startup money, a down payment on the upcoming jobs.

Or you can just give it away, struggle with the costs privately, and poison the business for everyone else.

I mean this in the nicest way possible. As someone who's made a living exclusively in photography for 26 years, I promise you're doing no one any favors by giving it away.

You're just telling your clients what you think your work is worth.

If you don't want to consider your time (building, testing, tuning) and your investment as other than a hobby, at least consider the cost of all the gear you put at risk for each photograph.

By charging a reasonable fee, you do your client a favor. He gets solid value for his money, and your business grows. And when he needs another shot two years from now, you'll still be there.

Flip side is that you poison the market, putting others in your area out of business. Then you get bored working at your hobby and getting nowhere. Two years hence, you're gone and the competition is gone. It's the perfect recipe for a lose-lose outcome.

Just my $.02

Cheers,
George

[enigma]

only the first photo was free!, We just worked out a price sheet for him, that's the whole idea of the business. His offer was start-up as pre payment on shoots.

[AZ ChopperCam]

congrats on the jobs. you can remove that cooling fan. I have the A30-8XL on mine and I'm loading it down with more weight than you are and I'm flying in 105°+ temps and the motor never gets over 175 or so.

and those emoli's can take alot more amps than that Logo will throw at it.

(plus a solid minute of spool up, damn Hacker ESC)

so I see you are now subjected to the infamous X70-Pro. A full minute huh? mine was like a minute and 10 seconds. and Hacker says "that's how it's designed to operate"... uhhhh yeah right. ok. sure... I'm stupid.

drop that ESC and get a CC45HV and you'll never regret it.

you should contact Sean at Hacker USA and let him know that the ESC doesn't perform as it should. The only way it'll ever get fixed is if everyone who has one and hates it calls in to express their discontent. Hacker makes quality products which is why it baffles me that this ESC sucks so bad.

[enigma]

Thanks DJ. I did call Hacker and they told me that the esc is a "basic, entry level controller". Not what you expect when a company puts the word "Pro" in the description :lol:
I had the fan in place because the emolis were coming off around 140 degrees. Is this ok?

[AZ ChopperCam]

I did call Hacker and they told me that the esc is a "basic, entry level controller". Not what you expect when a company puts the word "Pro" in the description Laughing

that's exactly what I was told. poor excuse in my opinion. even an entry level controller should not take a minute to spool up.

140° on the emoli's? wow! My Prodigy packs never get more than 10° above ambient.

[enigma]

Hope it's ok cause I just took the fan off! What size pinion are you running? I stepped down from the 23 to a 20, but I'm only getting 1700 rpm unloaded., this esc really sucks, bad :arggg:

[lowandslow]

Nice job. Your shots do look a little soft. You may want to bump your shutter speed up and or check for vibtations.

[Renfield]

only the first photo was free!

This begs the question: How many free homes do you suppose your client built to get established in the construction business?

Oh well. To paraphrase Brady Longmore, you gotta do what you think you gotta do. At least you're not in my market.

Good luck,
George

[LoopBaCK]

A first free photo isn't a bad thing. When I started selling RC heli based pictures I've given away several - but only to commercial clients that otherwise wouldn't have given me the time of day. Absolutely every recipient of the "freebie" has come back for more (and at full price). Oh... and I didn't exactly give it away... I discounted it 100% and marked it down as an advertising expense that will help on taxes.

Since you already got a Logo 10 check out AskMan Logo Mount (http://www.askmanap.com/logo10.html). It would solidify your mount and offer additional in-flight options. I've got a front mount from Askman and it's a very solid mount! Maybe add a Digi-live from Black Widow and you're cookin' with gas now!!! (or flyin' with carbon - whichever :lol: )

EDIT: Carrying a Panasonic DMC-LX1 on the AskMan mount.

Good looking pics and sounds like a great start!

[enigma]

Nice job. Your shots do look a little soft. You may want to bump your shutter speed up and or check for vibtations.You're right, my $7 camera has a bad lcd so I can't access the menu, I'm shopping for a new camera right now, what's everybody using?

[AZ ChopperCam]

I'm using the 20 tooth pinion on 5s. the combo comes with 23 tooth for use with 4s. I get about 2000 on the head with the 20 tooth on my 5s packs.

[lowandslow]

The Sony V3 is what I use. Great camera, great quality and Southern Balloon Works make a really good camera controller for the shutter, zoom and on/off that plugs into the camera and directly into the rx.

Don't worry about giving away some free pics to get things started. We did our first Golf Course for free. That's how we got our foot in the door. Went to a local course and offered to shoot their club house and a few holes for free. That gave us some really good sample photos and lead to numerous other opportunities with other course owners in the area not to mention some local real estate gigs as well.

You do need to get your quality up and then charge accordingly.

I second the Askman mount. Good quality and performance. Add a nice digicam and you're there.

[Renfield]

Don't worry about giving away some free pics to get things started.

This approach works best with (heroin, cocaine, cigarettes, etc.)

It is considerably less effective with photographs.

There's plenty of stuff out there to photograph "on speculation" that you can use to get a foot in the door, add to your portfolio, etc. without giving ANYTHING away.

While a golf course has limited public access, you can still work out a good deal for them AND you. In this case, how about offering the course owner a win-win deal like: "I'll photograph your course, and if you LIKE the shots they'll cost you $x.xx . But if not, there's absolutely no cost to you."

My guess is that these people who are giving away photography have full time jobs, which is great for them. The bottom line for those of us whose livelihood depends on this work is that it devalues the business for everyone.

Cheers,
George

[lowandslow]

I couldn't disagree more. Giving away images or demo flights isn't a regular practice in our business, however, it can be a very useful tool for getting new clients and demonstrating capabilities.

Do you have a web site George? What AP rig do you fly?

[enigma]

:arggg: :arggg:
I would have to say that as a beginner this approach has already landed a very good prospect, and to top it off, I got a picture of his house while standing in my back yard! I handed him a disc with a few photos on it and in one week he set an appointment with requests for listings photos, construction progress photos, closing gift photos, and keep in mind he builds around 150 homes a year and is growing very fast. Giving away one free photo has paid off, keep up the way you do it, I'll keep my way going. Cheers. :D

[LoopBaCK]

Keep in mind "free isn't really 'FREE'". What I give free... I claim as a marketing expense. I don't do it except for special instances where I feel it's appropriate. If I were a portrait photographer I would absolutely agree that freebies are a bad thing. But for an image captured from a $1000 to $5000 remotely piloted helicopter the WOW factor can throw off clients focus on the product. Creating an end product for a customer at no charge can help push them through that barrier so they can start writing checks. I'm not saying it's always the best thing to do... but here in Mr. Enigma's case it seemed to be a damn smart move!

Hell my bank started offering kids savings accounts last year paying 10% with a minimum balance of $50! They didn't lose a penny! Just having "10%" in their TV ads and newspapers brought in a many new customers. Sometimes it's smart to offer things free (or highly discounted)...

George, not knocking your opinion :) . I certainly respect it and I can tell you my wife absolutely agrees with you! If ever I give a freebie - boy do I here about it!!! :hammer

:lol:

[Renfield]

:arggg: :arggg: :arggg:

Do you have a web site George? What AP rig do you fly?


Yes, lowandslow I do have a web site. I do commercial photography and actually get paid for my work. You're welcome to check it out at crosbystills.com

My current AP rig is a Panasonic Lumix FX9S on a Trex 450XL. I'm not marketing the Rex for AP yet. Just using it for unusual stock images from my area right now. Shots of the new hospital campus, civic center, main street, etc. There's just tons of free stuff to shoot for your portfolio, stock, etc. and I definitely don't mind shooting on spec., as I need the practice.

My most recent AP job was last Friday from an R-22 for the local paper. They absolutely despise having to pay for pictures, as they pay a staff to provide them with all they need. Yet they seemed thrilled with the results, and were very receptive to my invoice.

As I wrote above, I've made my living in photography for over 26 years, and other than stuff for family, it's never been free.

Lowandslow, I've answered YOUR questions. Would you kindly enlighten me as to how the negotiations went so wrong with your freebie golf course that you had to give it all away? Did you even try negotiating an opportunity for a win-win outcome (such as the one I suggested above)?

If you don't think your work is worth anything, why would your clients?

Another little tidbit from my meger 26 years in the business: I never-never-never-ever discount work on the promise of future work.

Guys, if the win-win business scenario makes no sense to you, by all means ignore it. I'm just trying to suggest there's another way and you don't have to bend over and drop trou to get work. Unless your images just can't compete otherwise?

Far be it from me to suggest you actually make some money. I do regret the impact you'll have on others in your market. But there's always (at least) one in any crowd.

Enigma, I only posted because your thread was titled AP on a budget. Everyone is on a budget. Some budgets are better than others. I was just trying to suggest a known, proven method for improving YOURS.

You can be the greatest photographer around and fail because of poor business practice. It's more common than you might think.

But don't take my word for it. Visit a professional photography site like ASMP.org, or talk with some established professionals in your area.

This is a great hobby, and if I never sell photos from my heli (not bloody likely) I'm happy to have tried it. But I am a photographer first and foremost. And the only way any of my work will show up in a golf course brochure is if it's paid for.

Kind regards,
George

P.S. Attached is a low res sample image of our home in the country, taken with the above AP rig.

P.P.S. Wes, your wife sounds like a smart woman. Congratulations.

[enigma]

Nice spread. I should probably add that I am disabled, medically retired so this is more of a hobby for me, and a way for my wife, the amateur photographer, to make a little well needed money on the side. It is not a full time job, hence no web site, advertising, etc. I guess you could say I'm doing my wife a favor and lifting her camera so she can sell a few photos to a neighbor who happens to be very involved in real estate. I do not think it hurts the business side since the only local option is full size aircraft. If the pictures my wife sells support my hobby/therapy, plus pays some household bills, fantastic. If they don't sell, oh well, it's just a hobby right now. :hug:

[WillJames]

Good for you enigma!! I like your attitude to make what you can and anything you make is better than nothing. Sounds like you have a good thing going, or a possible good thing going. Stick to your guns!!

[dreslism]

George,

Not to start a war or anything.

I am not sure I agree with the giving away of photos either, but here is my input.

Enigma, nothing derrogitory meant here, just using you as an example since you started this thread.

Let's say enigma shoots a golf course and only charges $50 instead of giving it away for free.

Is that any better than giving it away in your eyes?

I think you would say it has the same effect as giving it away as it will only hurt the market and his business.

Sounds to me like enigma is just trying to start a business on the side.

26 years ago when you started your photography career, did you charge the same rates (relatively speaking) as you do today?

Something tells me that as you got better and more established that you were able to charge more for your services over time. Right?

How is that any different then enigma starting out charging nothing or $50 for a golf shoot.

Only difference I see is that you have your 26 years of experience and don't like what you hear he is doing.

There is probably no way he can come out of the shoot and have an established session fee for his shoots and a usage fee for his images, and get any business.

Cold selling and prospective selling sucks. I can't tell you how many times I have shot some courses on my own, made some great 8x10's walked in, handed them to the General manager saw his positive reaction in his face, then he immediately asks how much? Give him the price, he says I'll get back to you, and then he never does. Follow up with him, nothing.

Now if you're just starting out and you cut them a "deal" to get your foot in the door, they will come back to you, and you can adjust your prices in the future.

I'm just saying its hard, and almost NO ONE in here does this full time, and marketing can take a lot of time. YOu can have the best portfolio in the world, but if no one around town has hired you yet, you sit with nothing.

As soon as you do actually do a job for someone, then your work starts getting around and word of mouth can start to take over.

Like I said, not meaning to start a war, but in all reality, I think you are the minority here (being a pro photographer). I think everyone else is kinda starting out, and trying to create their little business.

Anyhow, good thread, and good input from everyone including you.

[WillJames]

Veyr good advice Scott. I am about to get started myself, and if I am reading between the line right...

a.) Giving a promo rate once can work better in your favor
b.) Give very low quality shots or put them on a website if you shoot something to try to get work with it as nice 8x10's will not help much other than show them they don't need more.

I am trying to figure out how to get started and advice like you guys are giving is very nice to see. This will be a side thing for me in my spare time. (like I have spare time)

I to hope to get some golf course customers, this place is LOADED with a lot of PGA quality courses.

Thanks to everyone trying to help!! :noteworthy

[dreslism]

Veyr good advice Scott. I am about to get started myself, and if I am reading between the line right...

a.) Giving a promo rate once can work better in your favor
b.) Give very low quality shots or put them on a website if you shoot something to try to get work with it as nice 8x10's will not help much other than show them they don't need more.


I am not sure I understand b.) completely.

I was not saying they took my 8x10's and used them, never to buy again.

Whenever I deliver a print to a prospective client, they are always watermarked with my copyright info, so they are unusable by the customer, but I will leave a watermarked print with them if they want to show it around and decide on it. I would never trust them with a print not watermarked.

[WillJames]

ahhhh Ok thank you Scott.