View Full Version : 2 Flights and a 50T double stripped, what in the heck??
BobbySmith
08-30-2006, 07:53 PM
I wonder if the gears are made from a differant material after i went to the double gear i never had another Issue ed you using the G3 rx?
No G3 Bobby I fly Jr.
epc2.
BobbySmith
08-30-2006, 09:25 PM
Man that really stinks :arggg: :arggg:
Are you guys just going straight to idle 1 or are you using norm mode?
Man that really stinks :arggg: :arggg:
Are you guys just going straight to idle 1 or are you using norm mode?
I spin the blades by hand and then I start in normal mode and switch to idle up after 30-40 seconds (spool up).
epc2.
FrittsLogic
08-30-2006, 11:16 PM
First flight of the day, I use normal, just in case something weird and unexpected happens( every now and then it does!). Then after that, I do the Throttle hold, goto zero pitch, idle1, thr hold off, wait for spool up to complete, and go fly. I do this with Jazz, Schulze, and Hacker ESC's. Works like a champ on all of them.
Fritts,
Actually it was you I meant to ask. How's your Jazz 55-10-32 esc testing going on your Ion?
Cheers,
Tom C
OICU812
08-31-2006, 04:16 AM
Well Ed, I'd say your gear looks just like mine. Man that sucks, at least you are only a day away from shipping, different story for me here up in the boonies. Since this thread and all the suggestions I as well went back through the motor, made sure the pinion was not rubbing on the inside of the motor plate, also checked and double checked the mesh as I still have a single gear here I had for a spare from b4 and it is perfect. I tonight also double checked the esc settings against what everyone here had said and they are what are said to be correct from what I can see on this program box. I am going to send this back to MA, I am not sure what to do now if I should try another one, or if I should go single stage with different gearing etc... I hate throwing more money at this bird than I have to before really evaluating it well. What was the response from MA on your gear Ed?
I found evidence that the motor pinion have been in contact with the upper carbon motor mounting plate, and guess the friction and heat produced by that is enough to melt the secondary gear....just a theory I have to check when my new 60T gears arrive.
/Paul
OICU812
08-31-2006, 04:23 AM
Hmm well I wish mine was that simple, I would not be so nervous on just ordering another gear if that was all mine was.
FrittsLogic
08-31-2006, 05:07 AM
Tom, I'm waiting on some more secondary gears to add to the mix to be evaluated. But so far, the highest headspeed I've evaluated was 1805rpm. With that I have an average current of 21.5amps, doing FFF, stall turns, tight circuits...non-stop (I try to fly a common profile to keep all of the testing consitent)(data evaluated mid flight after takeoff and before landing so it's not biased down by hovering or spool up/down data). I have no expectations that the Jazz should be used for hard 3D, so I don't plan to test past 1850 rpm or so. So far it's been great, and runs much, much cooler than the same model Jazz on my 4S Lepton. The rpm has stayed locked in within about +/- 5 rpm throughout. At this point, I would actually be very suprised to see it thermal off.
If one look at the primary gear, it is almost similar to the secondary gear, except the size. But it is exposed to 4 times the torque of the secondary gear, but only 1/4th of the rotational speed a 60T secondary gear is exposed to.
The secondary gear is exposed to heat from the motorshaft produced by the motor plus heat generated in the fast rotating gear plus in some cases the heat produced from the metal pinion rubbing lightly against a carbon plate with 50.000rpm....my theory is that this total heat build up is enough to soften the secondary gear to a point where the secondary gear will fail.
When I touched the metal motor pinion after my last secondary gear failure, it was very hot.
If the friction from the motor pinion / upper carbon plate is the additional heat source there need to be removed , the solution could be to use a dremmel tool on the pinion hole in the upper carbon plate, or/and to have a secondary gear made of a more heat resistant material.
Not fact yet, just my own theory I will have to check out in the near future.
/Paul
WillJames
08-31-2006, 07:08 AM
That hot motor pinion from rubbing the carbon mount will kill a secondary every time. Thanks for the pics Paul!!
I have feature requested months ago to Chris that MA make the hole a little larger on the cut plan, I hope they do someday.
BobbySmith
08-31-2006, 08:44 AM
Yup if the pinion rubs it will heat up and kill the secondary gear quicker
1) Iwouldnt use normal mode the hacker has the sofest start if just go to idle 1
2) Never use a v curve for throttle curves always use a straight line like i use 100,100,100,100 i mean it doesntt have a clutch it is direct drive and everytime you move the stick t is yanking on the gear trane in doing some testing i have seen the V curve just yank the heli around then boom stripped gear
The funny part is i was going to go back to a Neu motor and take my single stage out i think the Neu wiht the new batteries has the best consistant HS for a 5 to 6 minute hard 3d flgiht
All bs aside i sold both my 2 stage Ions 2 months ago and built a single stage one for 12s any ways both of them had 48tooth double secondarys that had @ least 50 flights on them
Hope this helps
Bobby
Well Ed, I'd say your gear looks just like mine. Man that sucks, at least you are only a day away from shipping, different story for me here up in the boonies. Since this thread and all the suggestions I as well went back through the motor, made sure the pinion was not rubbing on the inside of the motor plate, also checked and double checked the mesh as I still have a single gear here I had for a spare from b4 and it is perfect. I tonight also double checked the esc settings against what everyone here had said and they are what are said to be correct from what I can see on this program box. I am going to send this back to MA, I am not sure what to do now if I should try another one, or if I should go single stage with different gearing etc... I hate throwing more money at this bird than I have to before really evaluating it well. What was the response from MA on your gear Ed?
Well Shawn I'm waiting for a response from MA , I contatcted my dealer and He's going to get in touch with them today, it really sucks.
Shawn I know that your esc settings are correct , I'm going single stage no more secondary $$hit for me.
I double checked and My pinion was not rubbing the motor plate , I also use a flat curve I do start it in Normal and then switch to Idle though.
I love this machine but IMO MinAir should take care of these problems , They 're releasing a new model which I like and love to have one but they're still having problems with their current model :!:
epc2,
WillJames
08-31-2006, 12:50 PM
You have to keep in mind epc2 that the Ion-X was developed and designed around the motor and pack power levels from 2+ years ago. That NEU motor puts out HUGE amounts more of power and torque. The airframe is going to have to catch up. That is how it has been for most all E-Helis. Gearing is also confining on the Single Stage, so they are doing what they can to keep up with the 2-stage Ion. Personally I wish they would go belt drive so we could have a lot more flexibility with ratios, but until they either drop the Ion-X or go belt drive, I will be flying Single Stage for the low maintenance.
There are plenty of people flying the 2-stage machines with no problems, just not that many flying 2-stage with the NEU/HOT Packs and trying to beat on it. Making sure all conditions are right with the 2-stage like a lot of the stuff mentioned above is very important if you want to run HP and HV super light weight setups with the 2-stage.
misskimo
09-01-2006, 02:45 PM
hey , well all I can say , is I went straight to a single stage right off the bat , all 3 of my Ions was single stage , 95 and 100t , thats a system that can take anything south of 5000 watts. useable great power 4000 watts for a 10.5 to 11 lb heli , 10 lbs or lighter on 10S, you wont see maybe 3500 watts or less, but the reaction is out of this world . and a short flight time , :badair:
BobbySmith
09-01-2006, 06:04 PM
Lets keep focused as iam fixing to go back to the Neu for flying 3d as i like the way it has a good consistant Hs
Pm me you guys and we can try and resolve this matter
Thanks
Bobby
rfaster
09-02-2006, 01:00 AM
I'm sure I'm not pushing my Neu Ion nearly as hard as most of you -- but I have about 20 flights on my neu/double 50/thick plate combo. Not sure how many flights this gear had on it pre me getting it (would have to ask BobbySmith) - I read about all of the issues before getting this setup - I have been lucky so far... and I'm running the G3 to boot.
Tom - I ended up putting another Hacker 70 into my Ion - so I did not end up testing the Jazz 55 - think Fritts is still having good luck FAI'ing with it on the Hacker. Good news on your 7 min with the 3700's - I have several sets and am close to 10 cycels on each and enjoying the light Ion! My Acto Ion is just about ready to Maiden - looking forward to seeing the difference between the 2 heli's.
rfaster,
No doubt, lighter Ion = better Ion!
Seems like you are one of the few getting very good 50t gear wear with a Neu. Probably because you are not doing hard 3D (and/or are not a stick jammer, like some of us!). I think Bobby said yours already had about 50 flights on it so now this is ~70. Sounds great!
You might find a single 52T gear would still give you FAI performance and a bit more runtime. This setup would probably be closer to my current hacker/56T setup. I intend to try this myself when I get a 5mm motor mount (ordered it over a week ago now).
It will be interesting to see how your Actro setup goes, but I suspect that due to the lower efficiency of this motor your runtimes will suffer. Maybe the lighter weight might make up some of this difference though.
I'm starting to think that maybe what the Neu motor needs is a more solid/rigid bottom motor mount (instead of the rubber ring) to the frame to help stop the torque movement of this long can, torquey motor. If this worked, maybe double gears would not (and they should not) be necessary.
Again, if and whenever I get the 5mm motor mount, I'll try to make a rigid bottom mount, should not be too hard. In fact, maybe I should just try this with the stock 3mm motor mount anyway!
Chris, if you guys from MA have already tried this and maybe found some problems with it, now might be a good time to chime in! Thanks.
Just a thought.
Cheers,
Tom C
BobbySmith
09-02-2006, 08:55 AM
That was a brand new Gear i sold Rfaster in that Ion as i built the whole Ion for him not one of my Old ones
i have alot of flights on teh Actro setups as well and yes the Voltage decay you see really stinks flying 3d even wiht the new packs you can still notice a Hs differance after 3 minutes of flight.
Keep in mind the Neu isnt the most power full but it has the best consistant Hs speed from start to finish i also used the 48 tooth secondary
Bobby,
You use double 48t gears and the 5mm motor mount right?
Do you think that supporting the bottom of the neu motor would help? Thanks.
Cheers,
Tom C
I understand that MA was testing a SS Hacker A60?
Any info ?
epc2.
BobbySmith
09-02-2006, 10:34 AM
The A60 is in a double stage belt drive setup right now
BobbySmith
09-02-2006, 10:37 AM
Hi Tom not real sure on the bottom plate support (havent tried it) i always ran it wiht out the ring on the bottom of the motor. When i had Chris make the thick plates it made the gear quit wearing funny i figured there was no need after that
Another thing is if the motor is getting hot it transfers heat up to that pinion then boom gear is stripped. Also you can take a Dremal and polish the teeth on the pinion