2 Flights and a 50T double stripped, what in the heck??

[OICU812]

Very frustrating.....
Went to the big GWCFF event here just this weekend. Spent 3 hrs wrenching to get in the new 5mm thick motor mount plate that Chris from MA made me, then of course a 50T "doubled" gear as well. Took about an hr to get perfect mesh. I used a peice of small paper folded and that seemed to give me a smooth nice feel yet snug enough to roll around the entire gear etc...

Spooled it up once at funfly and the bottm side wore in abit "slight", as the two gears pressed together were not 100% aligned but, "very" close. Did not have time to fly a second round. Came home and wanted to give it another go, 3mins into flight I noticed my HS dropping, gear was stripped and I mean "STRIPPED".

Very aggrivating this Ion is indeed, more so this POS Hacker esc. :bomb:
I got a hacker programmer box from GWK here and put in all recommeded settings for this motor etc.

I am confused as to whether I got a bad set of gears that may have had some air bubbles in the mold of if it is this Hacker crap startup jolt that is chewing these up. The first seconds of the spool up are nice and decently soft, it is about after 5-7 seconds it ramps up and I mean violently it seems to me as I compare to a Kontronik. I have my normal curve set at 0,25,100,100,100 I spool up and as soon as it is going I goto idle 2 which is 100 straight across, this is what several told me to do. Anyhow like I said I am either thinking it is the way this esc spools up "maybe something wrong with it, (or) a bad molded set of double gear. Here is pics, any thoughts would be appreciated.... Getting sick of this thing allready, starting to really P&^% me off as I have not even been able to really fly it. :soapbox

[MAIONX]

holy crap that certainly didn't look healthy..

by the looks of hows it stripped, it shaped it hexagonly or something? like flat surfaces.. somethings deffinetly moving.. to have that big of faces on it!

[OICU812]

Um no it was round, lol. Just the way the teeth tore away from the core, looks funny I agree but was almost a not so funnt situation autoing in backwards with next to no momemtum.

[WillJames]

Take a look at your pinion, I bet it may be rubbing the walls of the hole in the thicker motor mount plate causing it to get really hot and then melt the secondary teeth off.

You will have to separate the motor/pinion from the carbon plate to see if the pinion is shiny where it has been rubbing. Also is your pinion polished?

[MinAirChris]

Are you using a Hacker Master 77-O-heli control? If so do you have the slow start function turned on? And if that is set up correctly what is your spoolup routine? What I'm thinking is happened here is that somehow the slowstart is being bypassed and the motor is being spooled up too quickly. This can strip gears in short order. Failing that, perhaps you did get a bad gear, call us and we'll get it worked out.

Chris

[OICU812]

Well, I will try to reprogram this esc,,,again. Get another gear or "two" lol and try, try again. Yes the pinion is polished with some dremel stuff and the pinion verified is not rubbing the inner hole of the new plate. Frustrating introduction to this heli, esc that is for certain.

[TomC]

Shawn,

The 'best' start-up method with this esc is to simply start-up in Idle-up (100% flat line). I boot the heli/esc up with throttle hold on (@ 0% setting), set the throttle to mid stick (0 deg pitch), wait for the 5 little beaps, give the blades a bit of a spin by hand, and then switch off throttle hold.

The motor starts very smoothly with maybe one of two very small jerks to start with. My spool-up to full speed seems to take about 35-40 sec. It spools up to hovering speed in about 15-20 sec, and then seems to take about another 15-20 seconds to develop full headspeed.

My normal mode throttle curve is 0-50-100-100-100. I do not use this mode much unless I need to land and stop the heli to check something out. Initially I just used throttle hold to stop and restart things, and this seemed to work ok but one time it started up very quickly spun the tail around. I just hit throttle hold again to shut it down and it did not do any damage.

Since then, I have always used normal mode to re-start but find that you need to be VERY gentle with the throttle stick. If you start, or re-start in normal mode and bump the stick up and down (or flick into Idle-up) when the heli is still spooling up, it seems to bypass the soft start mode and things speed up very quickly. I think that this may be what is happening in your case.

Initially, I was not a big fan of these hacker escs but now that I've gotten used to it, I think it's great.

A couple of other minor points I picked out on your pics.

First, you do not have a fan blowing over the esc. I angled a 50mm fan (in the stock position) at ~45 deg to blow over the esc and placed another 50mm fan just in front to the motor, blowing on it. I also have a 40mm fan at the front, under the gyro mount, blowing into the front of the canopy, over the ends of the batteries. I used 3-12V fans, wired in series (~= to a 36V fan) and hooked them up to the esc battery leads. I think that this is a much better way to hook them up rather than using a 5V fan plugged into your rx, less load on your rx bus and less potential for interference problems. I'm a big fan of pc fans, they really do help keep things a lot cooler. I also drilled a few (5) ~15mm holes on the bottom of the canopy to get a bit more aiflow through the front of the heli.

Secondly, I really do not like to see your UBEC so close to the motor. This could be picking up a bit of interference and may also be causing some of your start-up problems. When I was using my UBEC, I mounted it below and forward of your rx. If I was going to try a UBEC again (mine failed during a bench test to check the servos holding power) I would mount it where it gets a lot more airflow. I'd probably mount it on the outside of the upper rear frame (either side), between the tail and rear cyclic servos. I'd then route the rx lead along the top of the frame, keeping it as far away from motor and esc as possilble.

I would also recommend using a voltage spike protector (if you do not already have this) to help prevent the welding-like spark you get when you plug-in your esc and flight batteries. I use a 2W 100 ohm resister an it works great. Do a search on this and you will see different ways to hook this up, or PM me and I'll give you the details of my hook-up.

Hang in there, I'm sure things will come good soon!

Cheers,

Tom C

[lukedodd]

Very aggrivating this Ion is indeed, more so this POS Hacker esc. :bomb:
I got a hacker programmer box from GWK here and put in all recommeded settings for this motor etc.

I stripped the same gear(single) in my No1 ion about 10 flights old, I suspect the gear mesh was too tight. I use a Schulze 32.80KA ESC. Its ramp up from start is perfect. Very slow to start with and full rpm in around 10 seconds. This has been the only hiccup I have experinced with my 2 Ions to date (touch wood). They are a great no fuss machine and so smooth to fly. I have had a few problems with ESC's however, particularly the H-77 heli ESC.

The first H77 I put in Ion2 did not work properly, it would not achieve full rpm and there was no slow start. I exchanged this with the retailer and the second one worked perfectly. Is your ESC new? This second H77 ESC has logged 50 flights in my No.2 Ion. However it does not always respond to the prog box as expected, sometimes you have to cycle through the menu a few times before you get the unit to beep. If you don't get a beep after altering a menu option or changing a setting it means the alteration has not been written into the ESC's Eprom!!!

One thing with the H77 slow ramp, it starts too suddenly, with a jolt and will cause the blades to shift in the holder, so I spin them by hand to start with, the rest of the ramp up is a little slow for my liking, but bearable.

LD

[TomC]

Just as an aside, I've had a few pm's regarding the spark suppression method I use. This has been covered a while back by Luke Dodd, but I thought it might be useful to explain it again and try to describe how I use it:

First of all, I use 4mm bullets on all my battery packs and esc so if you use other types of connectors, you'll have to figure it out yourself a bit.

The main thing to understand is what you are trying to do is initially startup the heli esc with a light gauge (~16-18) wire with a 1-2W 80-140 ohm resistor (does not need to be exact). You startup (arm) the esc with this connection and then connect the main lead to bypass this. This charges up the capacitors of your esc and you will not get any sparks when you then hook up the main leads! Works great for me and I have not had to replace any connectors since I did this.

In my case, I made a stand-alone lead to hook up between my esc neg lead and battery neg lead. This lead consisted of an inline 12 gauge lead to connect to the battery and esc and a set of plugs between to plug them together (last startup step). I then soldered a light bit of wire and resistor to the ends of each of these ends. I put some shrink wrap around the resistor.

The end-end length of the main wires/connectors is about 3 inches, shorter the better. the length of the small wire resistor is about 4 inches. So to startup I plug both ends of ther main wire to battery and esc negatives but do not plug in the connection between them. This allows current to go through the small wire/resistor and starts up the esc. Once the esc confirmation beeps end (it is armed) I then simple connect the the main wires.

Since I have not mastered inserting pics yet, I'll try a simple schematic:

hook up last
><
neg esc -----==------==--------==----- neg battery
l------resistor---l

Sorry, this is the best I can do to explain it. The = are my bullet connectors. I use 12 gauge wire/4mm connectors along the main esc/battery leads and solder a smaller gauge (~16) for the resistor leads, which solder to the ends of the stand-alone connectors.

Once the esc arms, you hook up the middle main lead (hook up last above) and the current will then naturally bypass the small lead with resistor. Initially I made it so I could disconnect this lead, but I found that it was not necessary. Just do not bump the throttle stick before you hook up the main middle connector, or you will blow the resistor, like a fuse. Won't hurt anything else though.

There are lots of other ways to hook this system up so you just need to try to figure out whats best for you. The concept is the same though and it works very well for me. Also, because my method is stand-alone, I can share it with my other heli's. As long as the 12G stand-alone leads are short and connectors are properly soldered, there is not any significant electrical losses.

By the way, if the esc does not startup you need to try a smaller ohm resistor. That is, if you were using a 140 ohm one, try a 100 ohm one. Likewise, if the resistor gets too hot (melts the shrink wrap) during the initial startup with a 1W resistor, go to a higher 2W resistor. I think that the best combo to start with is a 1W 100 ohm if you use rx batteries or a 2W 100 ohm one if you use a UBEC. The resistors are pretty easy to find at radio shack / tandy.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Tom C

[OICU812]

Fair enough, next time I will just put on throttle hold, flip to idle 2, then flip off throttle hold and let her buck. All I know is I hate fixed throttle curves and I need a Jazz that will give me a nice happy feeling. That powerjazz cannot be realeased fast enough for me. Sure I may get used to this thing for now, none the less imho it is a peice of poop. I like the one time programming and perfect governor of Jazz escs',,, it is likely me being spoiled for so long on escs that give me such a hasty attitude towards this Hacker stuff. Thanks for all the suggestions, when I get a replacement gear in I will be sure to triple check my procedure and settings and let you all know, one more gear goes or anything for that matter than I am going to leave this heli alone for awhile, my Logos never require anything just to be flown.

[TomC]

Shawn,

I hate to say 'I told you so'. All 90 sized electric helis are a lot more trouble to get going well than 30-50 sized ones. Also, like Luke suggests, give your blades a little spin by hand before you spool it up. This helps to minimise the 'startup jerks'. Also, unless you are really good at sighting the blades up square to begin with (I'm not very good at this) I would not tighten the grips up too much or you will also get a, not very pretty, wobble during spool up.

Another potential problem you may now have with your Neu motor is that the motor bearings may need replacing. Stripping gears (esp double ones) is pretty hard work on any motor and this may have worn and/or damaged the motor's bearings. I recently sent my Neu motor back to Steve Neu (via Diversity models) and he replaced my bearings, for no charge. I think that your Neu motor is used and do not know how many flights it's had on it, but if the bearings were already worn and/or damaged they may already have needed to be replaced.

The signs to watch out for with worn motor bearings are; vibration, lower than expected headspeed, higher motor temps, and increased gear wear. The main signs I noticed were lower headspeeds and increased gear wear. If this is the case, the most expensive escs and triple gears will not really help matters. I would really recommend that you send it back to get checked out. It's not a bad idea to have a spare, backup motor for the Ion. Now might be a good time to think about picking up an Actro to try a single staged setup!

I've had lots of hiccups along the way with my Ion as well and threatened to retire it on a couple of occasions. The trouble is, when you do get it up and running well, it is just soooo much nicer to fly than anything else, you forget about all the problems you've had!

I've ordered the 5mm motor plate and 50T double gear from our local Xcell dealer. Before I try this with my Neu motor again, I'll slip on a 52T single gear first. This should give me ~1900 headspeed, or about the same as I'm now getting with my Hacker/56T set-up.

If this seems to work fine, then I'll slip on the 50T double. In fact, I might even find that the 52T is fine for what I want to do right now (FAI and light 3D). I'm actually quite happy with my current Hacker/56T. I'm getting 7.5 minute runs with 10s1p Evo 3700's and temps are all fine (batteries ~105 deg F, Esc 110 deg F, and Motor 135-145 deg F, putting back 2800-3000 mah).

The only reason to try the Neu again, is to see if performs any better at the same headspeed. I think that the Neu should have a little more torque to help pull the heli through a few moves better than the Hacker. Also, the Neu is supposed to be more efficient so it might mean 8 min. runs may be possible.

The point I'm trying to make is, maybe you should try a single 52T gear first, get the thing up and flying well, and then evaluate whether you need the extra headspeed. I think it's a good idea, esp with large electric helis, to initially start your setups on the slightly conservative side and go from there.

Also, I do not remember what blades you are using, but you are better to stick with 690's. Anything larger is going to load the Ion up a lot more. I believe that the most efficient blades for a 10s ion are TG 690 all rounders. MinAir Chris recommended these blades to me and they have worked great. He also kindly bored out the holes and put in a 5mm bushing for me, no charge! What a great guy eh?

Just my thoughts, hope this helps.

Best of luck and cheers,

Tom C

[MAIONX]

Here i Have drawn up the setup Similar to what Tom runs as i have seen this particular setup in person. I think he said he is running 3 bullet connectors (inpairs).

here i have shown the Main Battery to esc bullet connectors and the smaller Connectors for the Resistor.

Tom might be able to help out with a bit more description to this photo i have drawn..

This also helps me because i have not yet received my ion so i also drew this too help me understand this.

http://www.helifreak.com/album_mod/upload/620208f7294c0367aea719a55c16bbbc.jpg

Cheers guys,
matt

[OICU812]

Man you guys are getting crazy here, lol. The bec is fine there is no interference in that regard. The resistor good ideam but I am not going to bother as soon as the Powerjazz is available then I will just get that and be spark free. In regards to the motor I did actually look at the bearings they are fine. My blade grips are allready 5mm for bolts, slower headspeed and less 3D performance is not even a consideration for me. As far as the feel for it well I only got 4 flights on it since I have had it, I can tell you with 2 10S1P lipos on it and in parralel it felt like a huge tank in the air compared to my logos. When I get the gear in blah blah blah, I will strap on a pair of 5S1Ps then evaluate. I like things pretty snappy so we'll see. Anyhooo thx for responses I will revisit this situation when I get parts in. :smokin:

[TomC]

Shawn,

You have lots of good questions and concerns, but want a quick fix for any and all problems. When you have figured them all out youself, please post your results.

Cheers,

Tom C

LOL

[OICU812]

Shawn,

You have lots of good questions and concerns, but want a quick fix for any and all problems. When you have figured them all out youself, please post your results.

Cheers,

Tom C

Dude am I reading this wrong or what???? Was that rude or what....

Ummm no Tom I do not want a quick fix for anything, and I do not think I am going to figure out them all myself nor is that my goal. So thanks for your concern and comment, what the heck dude? All I was doing was answering the comments. The bec is "not" an issue it is only there till I get my regulator and lipo, I do "not" want pattern flying performance (my preference), and well that is it in short. I am not a complete noob so there is no need to condesend me in open public, it is hard to show facial expressions or emotions through a darn computer but I can assure you I am not that stressed nor am I all worked up looking for that real quick fix and fly thing. If you or anyone has a problem with me in the future please refrain from putting up such isultive posts on open forum (pm me and say your peice), that is why I am fading out of RR is because of crap like that. :?

[TomC]

Shawn,

Listen Mate, I did not intend to be rude, insulting, or condesending. I'm very sorry if you took it this way.

I was just trying to say that you look like you did not appreciate much of any advice that a few of us spent a long time trying to get accross to you (your comment; Man you guys are getting crazy here, lol.), but in any case I'm still looking forward to hearing about your results.

I appologize if this has offended you and will try to avoid doing so again.

Sorry,

Tom C

[MAIONX]

i agree with tom.

Cheers,
matt

[OICU812]

I guess no one knows what the "LOL" meant??, was at the end of my comment, there was no lol or lmao at the end of yours. Telling me I want a quick fix for everything, then telling me when I get it all figured out for myself to please post my results is not insultive? Wow ways of bringing up people in regards to general ethics and ways of dealing with people must be different on that side of the world, because in my country that way of talking to people is considered to be rude and is uncalled for when you do not know someone personally face to face. I accept that you did not mean it that way, but whatever that is the way it "clearly" comes across to me in my upbringing. And Maionx ,,,, :badair:

,,,,like the ol saying goes, "if you have nothing nice to say, then don't say anything at all".

I may just now change over to a single stage setup as per a few pms from people with the same issues from the past of wearing gears etc..

Now back on topic of the original post here, thank you...

[WillJames]

Thatnsk for workign it out guys. Life is to short for negativity especially for a guy who is just trying to figure out how to make his 2 stage hold up longer.

Stick with it Shawn you will get it sorted. Single Stage is also a very good option. I personally very much prefer the Single stage with 32-3 to my NEU 2-Stage setup. Only difference really is that you are a lot more confined on the ratios with SS, with either 9.5:1 and 10:1. Hopefullly someday they will adopt the belt drive stuff they hve learned to the single and 2 stage Ion-X. Man that would be cool and quiet.

[TomC]

You are right Will, life's way too short. LOL Shawn, give us a kiss and let's make up Mate!

Cheers,

Tom C

[rfaster]

Tom - how many cycles do you have on your 3700's? 7.5 FAI sounds great!

---------------
Tom Said...

I'm actually quite happy with my current Hacker/56T. I'm getting 7.5 minute runs with 10s1p Evo 3700's and temps are all fine (batteries ~105 deg F, Esc 110 deg F, and Motor 135-145 deg F, putting back 2800-3000 mah).
-----------------

[TomC]

Rfaster,

Ya I'm pretty happy with these runtimes (and performance) as well! I set my timer for 7 minutes and give myself about another 30 sec to land. I stretched this to 8 min once and put back 3200 mah, probably pushing the 80% rule a bit (3200/3700 = 86%).

I've only got about 30 cycles on them so far and they seem to be working fine. Two of the packs (of the 8 I have) seem to take a long time to balance (at the end of a flight) and I'm keeping an eye on them since I had a similar problem with my old evo20 5s2p 7400 packs that FlightPower replaced and split up (on my request) to 5s1p 3700 packs.

How are you making out with your Jazz tests? LOL, I'm sure that the world will be a happier place once Shawn gets his Power Jazz!

Cheers,

Tom C

[WillJames]

the world will be a happer place once ANY of us get our powerJazz or even a Schulze 100A small!! :arggg: :glasses2:

[OICU812]

Yea Will after talkin with Chris from MinAir I think the single stage would be the way to go, we'll see not sure I will have funds for abit. Thx for all help, and yes it is all good, please drive thru. :mrgreen:

[epc2]

There's no doubt that MA has a quality problem with these 50T secondary.

I had a single 50T that only lasted 28 flights , Then I got the thick plate and a double 50T , The gear stripped today on it's 4th flight and I double checked that everything was properly mounted no rubbing , correct mesh etc etc.

Also my ESC is programmed with the Box .

It simply sucks :badair:

epc2.