How to - 12s T-Rex 600 Setup On A Budget.

[adroc3905]

While I personally charge my 3000Mah packs at 1c, on two network Hyperion chargers, I could charge at 3.3c in the future.

Very insightful, thanks. :thumbup:
Any idea if I can network 2 duo III's?

[caralmar]

Sorry, 630kv x 6s won't produce enough head speed to get off the ground, looks like you'll be waiting for your packs.

How many pairs did you buy??

Haven't pulled the trigger yet on the packs. Need to sell off some stuff to get the funds. I want to get at least 6 packs to get me 3 full flights. Then I can fly the 600 and the 500 for a good hour since I have 4 packs for the 500. But I'm looking at right around $400 for 6 packs!

[rceccleston]

Very insightful, thanks. :thumbup:
Any idea if I can network 2 duo III's?
Not really, not much need for a 24s setup just jet, maybe when we're singing 1100mm blades. :YeaBaby:

However, the Duo's are smaller and convenient, but with their limitations.

[ser123ser]

I have been reading this for a month now. I bought a 600. been meaning to for a while but the power problem with 6s seemed overwhelming. Then i caught this thread. OUT STANDING. DON'T WAIT THIS WORKS.

I built my helo with the CC HV 80 and kept the stock motor just so i would know for sure. ran it on 6s for 6 flights. batteries came down hot and tired at just 2.5 to 3 minutes. bogging motor and just plain weak.

I ordered the scorpion motor 4035-630, cut the frames last night until midnight and got the motor in this morning. Could not believe idle up at 90 in the middle and 92 to 100 at the ends.

This thing was transformed from graceful underpowered bogging to a jet fighter. it was like a TR250 blasting around did some of my mild 3d stuff and full up collectives, no bogs just straight up.

I ran the first at 2 minutes and brought her in for temp check. the CC HV 85 was cold to the touch and the motor was not even 100 degress. Batteries were cold. changed batteries for new baseline and went 4 minutes. came in temp check. motor warm not hot. batteries warm not hot. ESC was still cool. ???? WTF.....

changed batteries and just pumped it hard and fast and 4 mintues later brought her in and everything was the same. Flew my last 12s (6x2) pack back to back, no cool down on the equipment. Same temps and diabolical speed and power. CAN YOU SAY TRANSFORMATION. :noteworthy:noteworthy

I must have read this thread ten times in the last month or two making up my mind to build this spec helo. I have a t500 6s with stock motor and stock 60 amp ESC align stuff, and it is good but high temps and battery limitations would demand cool downs between every two flights. Plus i started buying 40c batteries from china to keep up with the demands and temps.

Funny, when i went to buy out the motor last week 3 web vendors who had stock were suddenly out of stock. Hmmmmmmmmm i think a lot of copter addicts like me have deceided to take the plunge. I found a motor and did it.

those of you with a T600 do this spec. those of you who are getting ready to build a T600 buy the kit and build this spec. this spec works and is do able with reasonable money.

I see the frame flex with the 3rd bearing missing on spool up. the 3rd bearing will be done later. I will add the tail grip bearings next, and the frame stiffening between the canopy studs. The flexing is noticable on spool up. I am not seeing or feeling it in flight yet. but the copter flys pretty darn good stock condition except you have to build it per this motor, esc and battery spec.

I will write back later.

[nieves50]

Your observations are right on the money! I never bother to fly my stock, 12S from the start and still getting goosebumps from all that power!! the head WILL NOT BOG or feel tired.....

Can not understand why ALIGN is hell bent on 6s systems for a 600 size, nowadays they are obsolete.....

[rceccleston]

I have been reading this for a month now. I bought a 600. been meaning to for a while but the power problem with 6s seemed overwhelming. Then i caught this thread. OUT STANDING. DON'T WAIT THIS WORKS.
Nice report, well done. :thumbup:

Always good to hear feedback from new conversions.

Maybe, one day, 6s T-Rex 600's may become a distant memory like the flybar will soon become. :fly

[Rogman88]

For anyone wanting go 12S and have a motor designed for 6S still do it! Here's a couple of videos of myself and my buddy Chuck flying ours in parallel! They fly :clappp
We both have scorpion 4025-1100's on these 600's but I would imagine you could use 12S parallel on a standard align motor too since they are designed around 22.4 volt systems.
I've only been flying for a year so my attempts at 3D stink but you can hear the motor fairly well with very little bogging. Our helis on 25C outrage, flightpower, thunderpower, and turnigy 6S packs were coming down in the 130 degree range (older packs by the way) and the parallel setup was 80 on the same day!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GEVUCVjrc

Chuck spins his pinion off on tic tocs at the end of this one! You can also appreciate the conversation we're having regarding 12S setup too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMhUY-G4pZA

[nieves50]

That looks good! But remember, it's still a 6S setup (don't want to confuse the newbies). It works great because the batts can definetely handle more current since they are in parallel.

I bet is no more heavier than my ESP on 12S 3600mah! I might give this a try on an HK600. Great way to think outside the box!!

[rceccleston]

For anyone wanting go 12S and have a motor designed for 6S still do it! Here's a couple of videos of myself and my buddy Chuck flying ours in parallel! They fly :clappp
We both have scorpion 4025-1100's on these 600's but I would imagine you could use 12S parallel on a standard align motor too since they are designed around 22.4 volt systems.
I've only been flying for a year so my attempts at 3D stink but you can hear the motor fairly well with very little bogging. Our helis on 25C outrage, flightpower, thunderpower, and turnigy 6S packs were coming down in the 130 degree range (older packs by the way) and the parallel setup was 80 on the same day!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GEVUCVjrc

Chuck spins his pinion off on tic tocs at the end of this one! You can also appreciate the conversation we're having regarding 12S setup too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMhUY-G4pZA
Nice flying.

Looks like you've have made a 22.2v/6s 6000Mah 6s2p rather than a 44.4v 3000Mah 12s1p or 12s setup.

While your benefiting from the power of your new packs, there's very little statistics to confirm if your 6000Mah 6s2p setup won't degrade at the same rate as a stock 5000Mah 6s1p setup, due to the high amps and 22.2 volts nominal.

Because the 6s packs are connected in parallel, for a 6s2p configuration, the follow 6s issues remain compared to a 12s setup.


A weak pack may damage the paired pack with the high amp load,
High esc and motor temperature from high amps,
Shorter esc life from high amps,
A higher risk of esc fire, regardless of brand.

These issues are greatly reduced when the 12 cells are connected in series for a 12s setup / 44.4 volts nominal.

[Rogman88]

Actually look at the math on a parallel 12S setup:
I have come to the conclusion that 6S just pulls too much out of each cell too fast. I think spreading it out over 12 cells is just easier on the packs whether it's in series or parallel. For example. Say you pull 60 amps out of a pack during a flight. That would be 10 amps drawn out of each 5000mah cell verses 5 amps drawn out of each 3000mah cell (roughly 60% the amperage drawn per cell) if all packs run at 22.4v.

I wonder:..Whats the difference in amp/watt draw from running a paralleled 12S system on a scorpion 1100 vrs: A 12S series setup on a scorpion -630?

I know 12 series will be half the amps so should theoretically be easier on the packs bringing out 2.5 amps per cell verses 5 amps per cell on any given flight.

Incidentally, my scorpion 4025-630 is now on my bird (blue heli in above video) so I am now officially at 44.4 volts so I'll never know the parallel pack degradation answer :)

For what it's worth. 6S packs came down in the 120-130 degree range and this 12S parallel setup was 80 degrees coming down. Much less heat would mean much less degradation right?

[cybertk]

Hi everyone. I had been watch this thread for two months. Finally I did the 12 cell setup week ago. I love it!!! My throttle is in fixed endpoint mode, but I want to try the governor mode with the ICE HV 80 esc. I tried last night, I couldn’t get the desired head speed 1750, 1900, 2050 with 12 teeth pinion, except 15 teeth pinion. Do I really need to install the 15 teeth? Is there anyone had the governor mode setup? Please post your ESC config file in gov mode…..
Thanks guys!!!

[Trnquill]

Actually look at the math on a parallel 12S setup:
I have come to the conclusion that 6S just pulls too much out of each cell too fast. I think spreading it out over 12 cells is just easier on the packs whether it's in series or parallel. For example. Say you pull 60 amps out of a pack during a flight. That would be 10 amps drawn out of each 5000mah cell verses 5 amps drawn out of each 3000mah cell (roughly 60% the amperage drawn per cell) if all packs run at 22.4v.
Wrong. When you pull 60A from "an ordinary" pack (6S1P, 12S1P, etc.) the 60A current flows through ALL the cells.

Let's say your stock system (motor) eats 60A (that's 1300W on a 6S system). When having a single 6S pack, it is delivering 60A. The 60A current flows through all the cells in that pack. Now, if you upgrade to a 12S system keeping the total power the same, your current will go down to 30A (30 * 44.4 = 60 * 22.2 = ~1300). The 30A current flows through all the cells in your 12S pack (no matter if it's a single pack or two 6S packs in series). Let's consider a third option: 6S2P. The total voltage is 22.2V, amperage is 60A (assuming the power remains unchanged, as previously). Your 6S2P pack is delivering the 60A current. Because the pack are wired in parellel, they both provide half of the current. That's 30A. This current flows through all the cells in both packs (different "30A current flow", naturally).

As the simple math above prooves, 6S2P setup is similar to 12S what is comes to strain on the packs. The real difference between these two systems is in wiring (from the 2->1 pack adapter onwards), ESC & motor. It's far more easy on the system to deliver 30A current than it is to deliver a 60A current. This is why your ESC & motor stays cooler in a 12S system and you can pull more power from it.

[bradford1040]

oh my god!!!!! there is smart people out there lol, I have never learned so much in one post lol. I am serious not joking. Thank you and feel free to PM me on your math formula's or at least where I can find them

[Trnquill]

feel free to PM me on your math formula's or at least where I can find them
Power calculations are very simple and can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power

The currents on any circuit follow Kirchoff's laws and are also on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_circuit_laws

The only thing you need to know about Kirchoff in this case is the current law: At any node (junction) in an electrical circuit, the sum of currents flowing into that node is equal to the sum of currents flowing out of that node.

A "node" in our case is for example the 2->1 pack adapter cable/connector. If there's 60A flowing out from the adapter, there must be 60A flowing into the adapter. And since there's two packs connected to it, the current can come from these two sources. And if we assume the resistance of the packs is somewhat similar, each pack provides half of the current: 30A. 30A + 30A = 60A

Another example. Let's think one cell as a node in our circuit (6S1P pack). There's 60A current flowing through our pack connector to ESC. The pack connector is connected to the outermost cells of the pack. Since there's only one route from positive lead to negative lead (inside the pack) the current must take this path in order to flow. And the route is through all the cells; through our node. So, there is a 60A current through the node; through the cell -> through all the cells.

[bradford1040]

well thank you but I knew some of that but I was hoping you knew where to find info about lipo's in the extreme, I will keep looking for the info reading more and more on different sites. I want a cut and dry site about lipo charging and discharge and just all and all knowledge on them down to the last Milli-amp and ohm

[Shef]

@CYBERTK
You're correct, you'll need different gearing to get that kind of governed headspeed. One option I've played with is using a 16T pinion with the 700 Main Gear (164T). That will easily give you the ability to govern at your levels. You'll need the KDE hub (or something similar if it exists)

[bradford1040]

Battery research is focusing heavily on lithium chemistries, so much so that one could presume that all portable devices will be powered with lithium-ion batteries in the future. In many ways, lithium-ion is superior to nickel and lead-based chemistries and the applications for lithium-ion batteries are growing as a result.

Lithium-ion has not yet fully matured and is being improved continuously. New metal and chemical combinations are being tried every six months to increase energy density and prolong service life. The improvements in longevity after each change will not be known for a few years.

A lithium-ion battery provides 300-500 discharge/charge cycles. The battery prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Frequent full discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery more often or use a larger battery. There is no concern of memory when applying unscheduled charges.

Although lithium-ion is memory-free in terms of performance deterioration, batteries with fuel gauges exhibit what engineers refer to as "digital memory". Here is the reason: Short discharges with subsequent recharges do not provide the periodic calibration needed to synchronize the fuel gauge with the battery's state-of-charge. A deliberate full discharge and recharge every 30 charges corrects this problem. Letting the battery run down to the cut-off point in the equipment will do this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate. (Read more in 'Choosing the right battery for portable computing', Part Two.)

Aging of lithium-ion is an issue that is often ignored. A lithium-ion battery in use typically lasts between 2-3 years. The capacity loss manifests itself in increased internal resistance caused by oxidation. Eventually, the cell resistance reaches a point where the pack can no longer deliver the stored energy although the battery may still have ample charge. For this reason, an aged battery can be kept longer in applications that draw low current as opposed to a function that demands heavy loads. Increasing internal resistance with cycle life and age is typical for cobalt-based lithium-ion, a system that is used for cell phones, cameras and laptops because of high energy density. The lower energy dense manganese-based lithium-ion, also known as spinel, maintains the internal resistance through its life but loses capacity due to chemical decompositions. Spinel is primarily used for power tools.

The speed by which lithium-ion ages is governed by temperature and state-of-charge. Figure 1 illustrates the capacity loss as a function of these two parameters.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/images/parttwo-34.gif

[Rogman88]

Tell me if this analogy is correct. It's like pushing a gallon of water through a .5 inch hose in 5 minutes on 6s and like pushing the same gallon through a 1 inch hose (providing you were using a large syringe) for the 12S setup. You can get the same volume through both setups but takes much more effort to get the water through the smaller diameter hose. So the 12S (44.4v) setup is more efficient like the larger diameter hose?

[rceccleston]

Tell me if this analogy is correct. It's like pushing a gallon of water through a .5 inch hose in 5 minutes on 6s and like pushing the same gallon through a 1 inch hose (providing you were using a large syringe) for the 12S setup. You can get the same volume through both setups but takes much more effort to get the water through the smaller diameter hose. So the 12S (44.4v) setup is more efficient like the larger diameter hose?
With any electrical devices, high amps are bad, high volts is good.

Voltage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage) is the electrical driving force that drives a conventional electric current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current) from A to B.

Voltage can be compared to the pressure created by a pump in the central heat system of a home.

Current can be compared to the volume of water that moves around the heating system.

To summaries, the electrical driving force in a 12s system is twice as great as a 6s system, so the rate at which the current flows is halved.

Due to the low internal resistance of an electric fire, a high amperage can easily follow through the wire, causing heat to be generated as a by-product. This would be considered an inefficient device.

For this reason, the power grid uses a very high voltage to force the electrical current down the long distance of wire with low current, to reduce power wastage in the form of heat.

[ady]

yo , i can`t locate a 4025-630 , but i can locate a 4035-630 ,should i just go for the 4035 ??? its going in a nitro converted super pro now :) that i just got very cheap , may even stretch it too :) what do you recon out there please

[Shef]

Grand RC has them:
http://www.grandrc.com/inc/sdetail/184260

Ah...but you're in the UK..not sure what shipping would be for you.

[ady]

on its way :noteworthy thanks for the tip :noteworthy

[ChuckJrster]

Just my 2 cents worth here. I really liked my setup on 6S2P. As I don't have a lower kv motor...(at least...not yet!) I still have a 4025-1100, I ran that setup that you see there in the 2nd You Tube Video posted by my good friend and flying buddy, Rogman88 on the previous page of this post. If I had not twisted my 15 tooth pinion off, I would have had a longer flight. The power was unbelievable with this. Again, this was only two 3000mAh Turnigy 6S 35 to 45C [it actually says this on the packs] packs in parallel (basically a 6000mAh 6S pack) I need (I guess) to really fly just one of these packs for say only 2 minutes to see if what I was experiencing was the higher C rating of these packs, or, if in fact, putting these two batteries in parallel made a difference. The two particular packs that I flew in the video were Rogers new ones. However, I've been flying the same packs on my Align T-REX 500 (only one at a time of course) and they give great power to my 500! Therefore, that's why we went with that brand etc. We wanted to use Rogers newer packs to see what they would do etc. I'm now going to bundle up my two Turnigy 3000mAh 6S packs and fly those in Parallel next time I'm out at the field. This way, I can (if I want) share packs between my 500 and 600. Right now, I've got some old, tired, & worn out Outrage XP 5000mAh 25C 6S packs that I've been flying now for a little over a year on a electric converted T-REX 700 using Ray Nemovi's kit. I was lucky enough to get an early kit (probably a prototype) a little over a year ago directly from Ray. I've gotta tell ya, my 700 flew awesome using those Outrage packs...(when they were new!) I don't think I'll buy the Outrage brand batteries again, I'll probably stick with Turnigy's as the price is very competitive with those. Flying my 600 here in that video reminded me of how my 700 used to fly (two of those 5000mAh packs in series!) again, whenever those packs were new. I'm debating on either getting some newer 5000mAh 6S packs to share on my 600 & 700, or, simply getting some more 3000mAh 6S packs and either fly them in parallel on my 600 now, or, get a lower kv motor and fly 'em in series. Either way, we can all now make our 600s flyable with much more power than just on 6S alone. Thanks for all the info on this forum guys. I've gotten a lot out of it. Happy flyin'.

Chuck

[rceccleston]

yo , i can`t locate a 4025-630 , but i can locate a 4035-630 ,should i just go for the 4035 ??? its going in a nitro converted super pro now :) that i just got very cheap , may even stretch it too :) what do you recon out there please
Recommend calling Fastlad's to check when their expecting stock.

http://www.fast-lad.co.uk/store/scorpion_hk-4025-630kv_brushless_motor-p-4372.html
http://www.revolutionmodels.co.uk/acatalog/Scorpion_Motors__Controllers.html
http://www.modelhelicopters.co.uk/acatalog/Engines_Scorpion.html
http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/scorpion_hk40.html#
http://www.conceptcopters.com/store/product.php?id_product=457

[Jfm80]

Hello rceccleston.

Thank you for the effort you put into this thread (and everyone else answering questions).
What sensor are you using for your Eagle Tree to measure RPM? Do you have a magnet on your maingear or is it optical?

Jens