How to - 12s T-Rex 600 Setup On A Budget.

[chucky21022002]

Just want to update you guys that because of this thread my NEW ESP is on it's way. I could not wait much longer till January (my birthday present) when UK vat returns to 17.5% (currently 15%) so I bit the bullet and ordered one. It looks like it's going to be a very happy heli christmas.:happyd:happyd:happyd

[rceccleston]

Hi All,

I am slowly getting all of the components for my 12s heli. Got the CC 85 HV last week. What firmware is producing satisfactory results with the Scorpion 4025-630 motor? I have read that some firmware releases are better than others for the Scorpion motors. I would like your experience to help with the initial setup.

Thanks
Recommend version 2.16, the last public release, with 5 timing and outrunner mode.

[rceccleston]

Thanks a lot LUV4RCHeli I went to Grand RC on the way home to pick up an ESC for my 12s and they were all out !!!!! Just kidding I can wait. He did try to talk me out of the 4025-630 said I need a 740 instead now I am really confused but I guess I will stand to learn more about this while I try to figure this out. Is anyone running the 740?

Scorpion recommend the 4025-630kv for 12s as the 4025-740kv is better suited to 10s.

4025's compared (http://www.scorpionsystem.com/catalog/motors/hk40_kits/compare/?p5=203&p6=200&p7=204&p8=237)

He also didn't like flybarless heli's either and told me I wight want to wait untill the new skookum or ? can't remember something G.

My plan was to us a Mini V Bar hmmm now I have more to think about.

The mini V-bar can only be used up to the 500 class.

However, the full size v-bar with external satilites just been released.

Align are soon to release there flybarless kits.

Testing the new Align Flybarless System (http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=164132&highlight=align+flybarless)

[BPINE]

Thanks for that info rceccleston, I tell you what this hobby can get very confusing at times. I have got more misguiding info from shops than anywhere else, not that this guy is totally wrong but sure seems to contradict what everyone else says.

There are a few guys running the mini v bar on 6 an 700's where I fly and they seem to like them but again looks like I need to do a bit more research. The idea behind getting the mini v bar was to try it on my 250 as well. The only problem I know have is I run futaba 2.4 and I don't think they have a satellite out yet. OK all that being said I bought a regular V Bar.

The good thing about all this is that is why I am doing this project to learn more and the only way I can do that is to talk to many people and try new things.:thumbup:

[sambest]

how about scorpion 4035-630kv have anyone try it on trex600esp 12cells?
i'm building my ESP now still thinking about the motor...

Specifications
Stator Diameter40 mm (1.56 in)
Stator Thickness35 mm (1.024 in)
No. of Stator Arms12
No. of Stator Poles8
Motor Wind8 Turn Delta
Motor Wire24 - Strand 0.29mm
Motor Kv630KV RPM / Volt
No-Load Current (IO/8.4v)1.6 Amps
Motor Resistance (RM)0.014 Ohms
Max Continuous Current95 AmpsMax
Continuous Power4000 Watts
Weight421 Grams (14.7 oz)Outside Diameter48.9 mm (1.9 in)
Shaft Diameter5.98 mm (0.23 in)
Body Length61.5 mm (2.38 in)Overall
Shaft Length86.5 mm (3.37 in)

Thinking to use turnigy 3000mah 6s1p 40C x2 lipo because now i want to set with 6cell first so i can make them parallel so that i can get 6000mah 6s1p
in future if i want to upgrade to 12s no need to buy other sets of lipos just use them in series is that OK?

is that true that stock Align 100A can't handle T600ESP?i get 600L 1220KV motor, is it ok with this motor?planning to change the stock ESC first (with Turnigy HV120A)& run 6s setup if not OK then change the motor

[Pogo]

Thanks to this great thread I have a 12S T-Rex600 spooking around in my head now :arggg:
Can anyone with experience please post some flighttimes with 2x3000mAh in series?
I'm a sport/beginner 3D pilot and would appreciate if someone has some Headspeeds and flighttimes.

Thanks
Martin

[rceccleston]

how about scorpion 4035-630kv have anyone try it on trex600esp 12cells?
i'm building my ESP now still thinking about the motor...

Specifications
Stator Diameter40 mm (1.56 in)
Stator Thickness35 mm (1.024 in)
No. of Stator Arms12
No. of Stator Poles8
Motor Wind8 Turn Delta
Motor Wire24 - Strand 0.29mm
Motor Kv630KV RPM / Volt
No-Load Current (IO/8.4v)1.6 Amps
Motor Resistance (RM)0.014 Ohms
Max Continuous Current95 AmpsMax
Continuous Power4000 Watts
Weight421 Grams (14.7 oz)Outside Diameter48.9 mm (1.9 in)
Shaft Diameter5.98 mm (0.23 in)
Body Length61.5 mm (2.38 in)Overall
Shaft Length86.5 mm (3.37 in)

If I recall correctly, I believe from those who have tired 4035's in a 600, the power is insane but the flight time is greatly reduced.

The 4025-630kv produces 3.5hp over a 1.9hp from a nitro OS50 hyper and 2.1hp from a nitro OS55. :YeaBaby:

As you can see, the 4025-630kv has more than enough power for a T-Rex 600.

Thinking to use turnigy 3000mah 6s1p 40C x2 lipo because now i want to set with 6cell first so i can make them parallel so that i can get 6000mah 6s1p
in future if i want to upgrade to 12s no need to buy other sets of lipos just use them in series is that OK?

I believe it shouldn't be a problem.

However, the longer they are ran as 6s, the total life cycles of the packs maybe reduced compared to a straight 12s setup.

is that true that stock Align 100A can't handle T600ESP?i get 600L 1220KV motor, is it ok with this motor?planning to change the stock ESC first (with Turnigy HV120A)& run 6s setup if not OK then change the motor

ESC's of various makes tend to fail on 6s due to the high amps.

Rather than purchase a basic Turnigy esc and later replace it when upgrading to 12s, replacing the Align esc with the Castle Creations 85/110HV esc would be more cost effective.

[rceccleston]

Can anyone with experience please post some flighttimes with 2x3000mAh in series?
I'm a sport/beginner 3D pilot and would appreciate if someone has some Headspeeds and flighttimes.

Currently getting 5.5 mins, with time to land, on 12T at 100% throttle in fixed end points, peaking at 2150rpm and discharging to 1975rpm with 11/11 & 7/7.

Running very cool during rolls, loops and many tic-tocs.

[adroc3905]

Can you tell me where you got the tail boom support rod brace? The thing that looks like an "X"?

[thayghetucsb]

Thanks for that info rceccleston, I tell you what this hobby can get very confusing at times. I have got more misguiding info from shops than anywhere else, not that this guy is totally wrong but sure seems to contradict what everyone else says.

There are a few guys running the mini v bar on 6 an 700's where I fly and they seem to like them but again looks like I need to do a bit more research. The idea behind getting the mini v bar was to try it on my 250 as well. The only problem I know have is I run futaba 2.4 and I don't think they have a satellite out yet. OK all that being said I bought a regular V Bar.

The good thing about all this is that is why I am doing this project to learn more and the only way I can do that is to talk to many people and try new things.:thumbup:
The mini-V is said to be used only on 500 size and smaller. But that's only reccomendation. Having a mini-v will give you more options if you decide to mount it on smaller heli , T250 for example. I believe the fullsize v bar is too big for T250 or even T450. You've seen guys that fly mini-v on T600 or T700. So go with what you've seen. I seriously doubt the GrandRC dude built any T600 or own a mini-v. Mini-v is distributed by readyheli.

[BPINE]

The mini-V is said to be used only on 500 size and smaller. But that's only reccomendation. Having a mini-v will give you more options if you decide to mount it on smaller heli , T250 for example. I believe the fullsize v bar is too big for T250 or even T450. You've seen guys that fly mini-v on T600 or T700. So go with what you've seen. I seriously doubt the GrandRC dude built any T600 or own a mini-v. Mini-v is distributed by readyheli.

I decided to go with the regulator V Bar because I am sure I will never take it off the 600, if it turns out to be as good as most people say I will just buy another one anyway.

So get to work Eric on you flybarless 500 I want to see it fly.

Blair

[grandrc]

thayghetucsb, where do you fly? We want to bring our 12S T-rex 600 over and show you how it fly.

[BPINE]

Hello Grand RC (ED?), thanks for joining in . I do appreciate the time you gave to me when I came into your shop last week but am getting a hard time from people on wanting to go with the Scorpion 4025-740 instead of the 630 like most are running. Would it be possible to go into more detail on why this is a better choice. Someone here had posted a link to the Scorpion site that said that motor is to be used for 10s not 12s. I am pretty sure that is just a recommendation and can be used in many applications but I would like to learn more.
I for one would like to see your 12s run can you bring it out to Baylands some day?

Blair

[rceccleston]

Hello Grand RC (ED?), thanks for joining in . I do appreciate the time you gave to me when I came into your shop last week but am getting a hard time from people on wanting to go with the Scorpion 4025-740 instead of the 630 like most are running. Would it be possible to go into more detail on why this is a better choice. Someone here had posted a link to the Scorpion site that said that motor is to be used for 10s not 12s. I am pretty sure that is just a recommendation and can be used in many applications but I would like to learn more.
I for one would like to see your 12s run can you bring it out to Baylands some day?

Blair
While I respect you local hobby shop, I would recommend running within the manufactures specifications.

With 12s 30c li-po's on a 12T pinion, Readyheli's headspeed calculator (http://www.readyheli.com/Online_Headspeed_Calculator_s/81.htm) predicts the following, while I really is a peak of 2150 discharging to 1975rpm. This is due to a 5% tolerance in manufactures kv values.

Voltage for this calculation (avg):3,552/cell with a total of 42,624
Nominal voltage: Spoolup RPM 100% throttle no governor (44,4v): 1974
Avg RPM you will see with 100% throttle and no governor: 1838

However, with a 4025-740kv on 12s, Readyheli's headspeed calculator predicts insane headspeeds for extreme 3D, which could not be geared down for sport flight.

Voltage for this calculation (avg):3,552/cell with a total of 42,624
Nominal voltage: Spoolup RPM 100% throttle no governor (44,4v): 2319
Avg RPM you will see with 100% throttle and no governor: 2159

Clearly with 30 (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9489&aff=97114) or 40c packs maintaining a higher voltage, the predicted headspeeds on 12s could produce insane headspeed's and short inefficient flight.

[grandrc]

rceccleston,

Your calculation hits it on the head. Our 12S setup is for extreme 3D, (high head speed and short flight time).
we get about 2250-2300 rpm with 740Kv and 13 tooth pinion. Inititally, we tried with 4035-630 kv (14 tooth). But head speed was slightly on the low side for our flying style. 4025 740 w/ 13 tooth gives us a nice head speed and snappy response, but the flight time is less than 5 min (which long enough for our high stress flying)

As I mentioned (I was a little surprised to be quoted on helifreak) to Blair that he might need to consider if sport flying or 3D that he plan to do in the near future.

I hope this helps clearing things up a bit.
Ed

[BPINE]

rceccleston,

Your calculation hits it on the head. Our 12S setup is for extreme 3D, (high head speed and short flight time).
we get about 2250-2300 rpm with 740Kv and 13 tooth pinion. Inititally, we tried with 4035-630 kv (14 tooth). But head speed was slightly on the low side for our flying style. 4025 740 w/ 13 tooth gives us a nice head speed and snappy response, but the flight time is less than 5 min (which long enough for our high stress flying)

As I mentioned (I was a little surprised to be quoted on helifreak) to Blair that he might need to consider if sport flying or 3D that he plan to do in the near future.

I hope this helps clearing things up a bit.
Ed

Thanks Ed, I would say it will be some time if ever for hard 3D. I think flight time is more important right now while trying to learn.

Sorry if you took offence to being quoted here on heli freak I had no bad intentions I just thought people might know you and give me more insight to your opinion. Your name came up earlier in the thread and I just through it out there without thinking there might be a problem.


Blair

[Pogo]

Finally decided to build my own, thanks to this fantastic thread :D

Got a couple of questions:
Do you guys run an antispark device on that 12S setup? I'm quite undecided about it, and also about which connectors to use. On my 450 and 500 I use Deans, and if I use something else on the 600 I'll have to change them on the 500 as well, as I would like to share the batts between the two.

Regarding the lipos, on my 500 I have 3300mAh 20 - 30C Zippys. As these are no longer available, Turnigy will be the ones I'll order. Do you think 30C - 40C are good enough? Or would 40C - 50C be recommended? What mAh would be the biggest ones weight-wise that still balance nicely? 3000mAh? 4000 mAh?

Thanks for the help everyone, looking forward to building this beast :YeaBaby:
Martin

[halley]

It would be nice if there was a two-stage connector that had a 100kΩ resistor wired in series for the first stage, and direct contact for the fully-engaged connection. This would allow the capacitors to precharge a bit without sparking.

Kontronik, by the way, promises a no-spark connection. They may be doing something very clever with the capacitors to achieve it. Anyone who has a Kontronik Jazz, I'd like to hear if they agree with the no-spark claim.

Short of that (pun intended), people who use Anderson PowerPoles report that any spark is far less noticeable, because both contact housings surround the connection before they get close enough to arc, and they're aligned so you can insert them faster and easier, reducing the time between arc and direct contact.

http://i315.photobucket.com/albums/ll450/HariEdo/powerpole-jack.gif

[dfrazier]

I am using the new Hobby King XT60 connectors and I do not notice the same pop when the plug is connected like I did with Deans connectors. It is probably because the plug is recessed and the housings are slightly together before the connectors actually make contact. It just muffles the sound.

[Trnquill]

Short of that (pun intended), people who use Anderson PowerPoles report that any spark is far less noticeable, because both contact housings surround the connection before they get close enough to arc, and they're aligned so you can insert them faster and easier, reducing the time between arc and direct contact.
I have an adaptor cable from Deans to EC5 in my 600 ESP, so it's easy to do comparative testing. Deans' make very loud pop and put up a large spark when connecting. EC5's produce only a very small spark which is audible and visible through the connector housing. But the spark strength both in volume and light intensity is WAY lower with the EC5's compared to Deans'.

The 600 has Castle ICE 100 and my 500 ESP has stock Align ESC. When connecting the very same 6S battery sequently to both, the ICE 100 produces significantly larger pop. What this tells you is the ICE has bigger caps than the Align or at least current gets to the ICE faster.

[rceccleston]

Finally decided to build my own, thanks to this fantastic thread

Glad my thread has been of use for you.

Do you guys run an antispark device on that 12S setup?

No, as Castle Creations say, the spark is your friend (http://www.castlecreations.com/support/faq/faq-phoenix_hv.html#hv3).

While deans will degrade, there are no issues with the 5.5mm bullet as the sparks arks on the tip.

Do you think 30C - 40C are good enough? Or would 40C - 50C be recommended?

The 6s Turnigy 3000Mah 30/40c packs (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9489&aff=97114) work and balance very well with a vertical battery mount.

Any more weight and the heli would be nose heavy.

What mAh would be the biggest ones weight-wise that still balance nicely? 3000mAh? 4000 mAh?

Recommend no more than 1014 grams of two 6s Turnigy 3000Mah 30/40c packs.

[stewb]

I may be looking to do this, could i use the xl motor for this temporarily. I'm looking to get new lipos, but can't afford to get everything now.

I would need the lipos, cc pro bec, and the motor. If i could save buying the motor that would help? I'm very new to this bird as im moving from 450's.

[rceccleston]

I may be looking to do this, could i use the xl motor for this temporarily. I'm looking to get new lipos, but can't afford to get everything now.

I would need the lipos, cc pro bec, and the motor. If i could save buying the motor that would help? I'm very new to this bird as im moving from 450's.
You'll need the Scorpion 4025-630kv as the stock Align is only rated at 6s with high amps.

You could upgrade in a few steps.

1 - 2x 6s packs in parallel with stock Align esc and motor,
2 - Upgrade esc to Castle Creations 85 or 110HV.
3 - Upgrade to Scorpion 4025-630kv with packs in series.

[BPINE]

How many are doing the 3rd bearing upgrade as part of the 12s project. It looks like you have to buy the bearing blocks in pairs am I correct?

[rceccleston]

How many are doing the 3rd bearing upgrade as part of the 12s project. It looks like you have to buy the bearing blocks in pairs am I correct?
You have to buy the three stock plastic bearing blocks but would have two spare bearings for the metal bearing blocks.

We have seen many polls regarding the installation of a third bearing block.