How to - 12s T-Rex 600 Setup On A Budget.

[rceccleston]

Following recent interest in 12s (44.4v) setup's, I would like to share my last 10 months/180 flights of experience and setup for those looking to convert to 12s for longer pack life cycles and excellent performance on a budget. Not everyone can afford a Jive ESC, Neu outrunner or expensive packs.

Typically, due to the low voltage (22.2v) and high amp (>100a) demands on a stock 6s (22.2v) setup, many have noticed a degrade in pack performance after approximately 50 flights. Additionally, the high amps decrease efficiency in the form of heat, which has led to esc fires from various manufactures.

With a high voltage, low amp setup and the availability of cheap high continuous rated packs, the stress on the power system is greatly reduced so increasing efficiency, continuous power, reliability and prolonging components life cycles.

Now, before some jump in, their have been failures which can be related to product defects, over gearing, excessive head speeds and the use of low continuous rated packs.

With 180 flights under my blades, this setup appears to work really well with zero failures. :thumbup:

The heli:-

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=27702

The setup:-

T-Rex 600 Electric Super Pro (ESP),
Castle Creations 85HV ESC,
Scorpion 4025-630kv Outrunner,
Mikado 3012 12T Pinion - Align 5mm (http://www.align.com.tw/shop/index.php?cPath=22_72_80&sort=2a&page=4) pinions.
Castle Creations Pro BEC,
Align DS610 Cyclic Servo's,
JR DS8900G Tail servo,
JR G770T Gyro,
Align 600 blades,
KBDD tail blades,
2x 6s Turnigy 3000Mah 30/40c (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9489&aff=97114).

While some maybe able to afford the best components upon the market, this thread has been created to show affordable components really do work and perform well.

Purchasing an ESP saves alot of money in upgrades with minimal additions of affordable stock components, to further enhance the ESP airframe. These will be shown and explained throughout the thread.

All of the included Align electronics can be easily be sold 'as new' to fund the 12s upgrades i.e. Align ESC, motor, regulator and receiver pack.

Due to the wider diameter of the Scorpion, the installation of the 4025-630kv requires some cutting of the frames, using a dremel. The red wire within the motor housing is an Eagle Tree thermal probe, recording in flight running temperatures.

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=27708

With the installation of a third Align bearing block (H60031) and replacement Align main shaft (H60013) from the original 600e, the frames are stiffened and removes the play from the main shaft. Prior to the upgrade, noticeable play could be seen during spool down.

http://www.align.com.tw/shop/images/function/h60031_1.jpg (http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_72_80&products_id=1272) http://www.align.com.tw/shop/images/function/h60013-1_1.jpg (http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_72_80&products_id=1914)

Because the voltage has been doubled, the amps would be halved, with the same wattage motor. However, with the increased wattage/power of the Scorpion 4025-630kv (2.7KW 3.62HP) from the stock Align 650L-1220kv (>2KW >2.68HP) the amps have increased to 65 continuously.

With an overhead of 20 amps continuously, the Castle Creations 85HV ESC is an ideal match for the Scorpion 4025-630kv.

With significant improvements in recent firmware releases, to enhance the governor, the Castle Creation 85HV ESC has not let me down in fixed end points. Due to the aggressive high amp peaks of the governor, fixed end points have proven to be more efficient with minimal bogging and increased flight times on 12s.

Below is a copy of my ESC config.

################################################## #####
# Castle Link Data File
# Created: 21 October 2009
# Do Not Edit This File By Hand
################################################## #####
Hex55: 85
Brake Strength: 0
Brake Delay: .6 sec (Delayed) (*)
Brake Ramp: Immediate (*)
Cutoff Type: Soft Cutoff
Motor Start Power: 59
Direction: Forward (*)
PWM Rate: Outrunner Mode
Vehicle Type: Helicopter
Throttle Type: Fixed Endpoints
Throttle Response: 5
Governor Gain: 50
Initial Spool-Up Rate: 5
Head Speed Change Rate: 8
Auto Rotate Enabled: False
Governor Mode Type: Simple
Current Limiting: Disabled
Cutoff Voltage: 360
Motor Timing: 5
Power-On Beep: Enabled (*)
Auto-Lipo Volts/Cell: 3.0 Volts/Cell (*)

Holes have been drilled through the bottom bracket to mounted the esc between the rear frames. The nylon bolts, mounting the skids to frame, should shear in the event of a crash to protect the bottom bracket.

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=27716

Setup for sport and mild 3D, the Scorpion 4025-630kv with stock bearings and Mikado 3012 12T have never stripped a main gear peaking at 2100rpm and discharging to 1940 on a 100% flat lined throttle curve. Increased headspeed for aggressive 3D can be achieved with the Mikado 3013 13T pinion, at the cost of flight time.

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2490&pictureid=26602

Since replacing the stock Align regulator and receiver pack for the 12s Creation Creations Pro BEC, this single connect and fly setup has greatly reduced the hassle of monitoring/charging packs. Rated at 10 amps continuous and peaks of 20 amps, the CC Pro BEC has eliminated the chance of low voltage brown outs for a further flybarless upgrade.

http://www.castlecreations.com/images/gfx-ccbec/pic-ccbecpro_in_hand.jpg (http://www.castlecreations.com/products/ccbec.html#)

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=27717

The JR 770T / 770 3D gyro has been mounted on the underside of the boom, with second radial tail grip mod, for a truly locked in tail and protection in the event of a crash.

In flight, the pitch of the tail blades cause the tail grips to bind on the thrust bearing, which result in low gyro gain. With a second radial bearing installed within the stock Align metal tail grips, the side load is removed from the thrust bearing.

With a stock install, one radial bearing then the thrust bearing is installed

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=27174


With a second radial bearing, one radial bearing, one thrust bearing then a second radial bearing is installed, like the KDE upgrade.

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109955&d=1250009809

Either of the Align metal or plastic tail grips can be used for this mod.

Parts Required:-

- Two 3x10x4mm radial bearing,
- Two M3x12mm button or socket head cap.

Simply remove the stock M3x8mm bolt from the blade grip, keeping the original washer and insert the 3x10x4mm bearing.

With thread-lock, firmly tighten the M3x12mm to bind the original washer between the inner racer of the 3x10x4mm radial bearing and the tail rotor hub.

Because the M3 bolt acts as an extension of the tail hub, this allows the second radial bearing to dissipate the side load otherwise exerted on the thrust bearing.


The second radial bearing can just be seen behind the root of the tail blade.

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=27173

This results in smooth pitch control with no binding and higher gyro gain. Prior to the upgrade I could only run 70% gain, now with the second radial, I can run 85% before the tail will wag.

A pair of 6s Turnigy 3000Mah 30/40c packs (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9489&aff=97114), connected in series, are held in by vertically mounting the stock battery tray. The 'centre of gravity' is then spot on.

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=27720

The frame has been stiffened by replacing the stock plastic hexagonal bolts in the boom block for Align metal hexagonal bolts with stainless steel bolts all round.

http://www.align.com.tw/shop/images/function/h60032_1.jpg (http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_72_80&products_id=1273)

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=26972


http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=26971

Additional frame support for the elevator servo has been installed by replacing the stock plastic canopy with the Align metal canopy mount (H60092) connected by M3 threaded rod to an Align frame mount bolt (H60187).

http://www.align.com.tw/shop/images/function/h60092_1.jpg (http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1439) http://www.align.com.tw/shop/images/function/h60187_1.jpg (http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_72_80&products_id=2676)

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=27707

By covering the receiver antenna's with heat shrink, additional support has been added to prevent damaging the internal copper wires.

Lastly, with great availability, the stock Align 600 main blades have been working very well for rolls, loops, tic-toc's and much more. At half the price of stock carbon tail blades, the neon KBDD tail blades glow well in the sun and are a great compliment to the stock yellow canopy.

[190SL]

Nice reliable setup :thumbup:I think I´m slowly moving towards something like yours...So far I´ve been looking for highest power possible, and trying to get a mechanical setup that can cope.. Did not really se any reason to go for 12s due to access weight etc..

But as you say, if the higher voltage and lower amperage can prolong battery life for instance, it could be value for money! I will concider a second change of esc soon then! //Lars

[OTA]

Aaah, a clean good looking heli. Nice:thumbup:
Only a couple of minor things:

1. I would not have the Eagletree permanently hooked up as it act as one more potensial failure point.
2. I have seen it many times and here too : Why do you use the rubber on the landing skid ?. They can actually be catastrophic if you have a little bad landing on tarmac or similar and the heli tip over due to that.
3 I would have kept the plastic canopy mounts as its better to have them brake than the frame in case of a crash.

BTW, the pictures show the heli as virgin, not after 180 flights i presume ?

[rceccleston]

With the 2.7KW / 3.5HP the Scorpion 4025-630kv can produce, without peaking, the power is really there.

Some have gone ott with the 4035 at the cost of flight time.

Found a video on YouTube that demonstrates the power this motor has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11NEAGKK7Y
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11NEAGKK7Y)

[Rotorcraft]

So what kind of flight times are you getting?

[rceccleston]

Aaah, a clean good looking heli. Nice:thumbup:

Thanks.

Only a couple of minor things:

1. I would not have the Eagletree permanently hooked up as it act as one more potensial failure point.

True, but the in flight records have proved to be invaluable to continue tweaking the setup and helped determine a loss of performance when a previous pack deteriorated quickly.

2. I have seen it many times and here too : Why do you use the rubber on the landing skid ?. They can actually be catastrophic if you have a little bad landing on tarmac or similar and the heli tip over due to that.

I prefer to land softly so never had a problem with a landings on either tarmac or grass. Helps stop the heli moving in back of car and falling off storage shelf.

3 I would have kept the plastic canopy mounts as its better to have them brake than the frame in case of a crash.

Personal preference. Crashed side on into the ground from an inverted hover, over a hundred flights ago, the original plastic canopy mounts didn't break or damage the individual side frames. The load upon the frame from either elevator servo or canopy mounts should now be shared between both side frames, with the installation of the frame mount bolt, and in theory reduce frame damage or twisting under load.

BTW, the pictures show the heli as virgin, not after 180 flights i presume ?

The pictures you see where taken today after 180 flights.

Many of you points appear to be of personal preference which will differ between pilots. :cheers

[rceccleston]

So what kind of flight times are you getting?
Average of 5.5 mins, after landing, of doing rolls, loops, tic-tocs etc with 30% left in the packs.

I'm sure it'll do 6 or even 6.5 mins.

[OTA]

The pictures you see where taken today after 180 flights.

Many of you points appear to be of personal preference which will differ between pilots. :cheers

Youre kind of perfectionist i think. Not even brand new main gear is that clean:shock::thumbup:

Youre right, many of the things is about personal preference. The day you have you have a less than perfect landing you will share my personal preference about the rubber skids though;)

[rceccleston]

For those who are not familiar with the 600NSP, notice the additional 'frame bolt' between the canopy mounts is a standard feature.

http://www.helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=2567&pictureid=27750

This was installed to strengthen the frame around the rear elevator servo as the loads were causing the single side frame to flex. With the installation of the 'frame bolt', this load is shared between the two frames so removing flex.

Align, in their wisdom, failed to include this in the ESP.

As I have said before, over a hundred flights ago, I crashed side on into the ground from an inverted hover and the original plastic canopy mounts did not break or cause damage the individual side frames.

For those interested in removing the frame flexing, M3 nylon threaded bar can be used between the frame bolt and canopy mounts, to break under extreme load.

[lex7919]

sweet heli bro :thumbup:

[nightflyr]

Very nice heli rceccleston:thumbup: wish you another 180 carefree flights.

nightflyr

[rceccleston]

sweet heli bro :thumbup:
Thanks.

[rceccleston]

Very nice heli rceccleston:thumbup: wish you another 180 carefree flights.

nightflyr

Thanks.

[statton1]

hey thanks for posting this. :banana:YeaBaby:
once my stock motor craps out on me -im goin scorpion-&-castle.:Bow

[rceccleston]

hey thanks for posting this. :banana:YeaBaby:
once my stock motor craps out on me -im goin scorpion-&-castle.:Bow
No worries, glad ya liked it.

You could upgrade in stages, starting with your Align esc and replacing tired packs with two 6s 3000's in parallel, then later connected in series...

[chucky21022002]

Just ordered ccbecpro. I will go straight to 12 (when my kit arrives) to prolong lipo packs life. I will be ordering parts one at a time as funds allow it. Might as well sell the stock motor & esc or use it as a back up. I find this post very helpful on my future project. Thank you rceccleston. :noteworthy:noteworthy:noteworthy

[rceccleston]

Just ordered ccbecpro. I will go straight to 12 (when my kit arrives) to prolong lipo packs life. I will be ordering parts one at a time as funds allow it. Might as well sell the stock motor & esc or use it as a back up. I find this post very helpful on my future project. Thank you rceccleston. :noteworthy:noteworthy:noteworthy
Glad it was helpful for ya.

Maybe we can make this a 'sticky'??

Anyone know how???

[nightflyr]

Glad it was helpful for ya.

Maybe we can make this a 'sticky'??

Anyone know how???
If you like, I can add your "budget 12S" to the 600 FAQ's...

nightflyr

[rceccleston]

If you like, I can add your "budget 12S" to the 600 FAQ's...

nightflyr
Cool, thanks.

[nightflyr]

Cool, thanks.
Consider it done:thumbup:..just trying to keep the chat postings here in the main forum so is not to clutter the FAQ section.

nightflyr

[Stolpe]

Now you got me dreaming for a T-Rex 600ESP 12S. Lol.... :lol:

Maybe in the future, but it seems like I can get more batteries for my 500ESP that I later can use for a 12S setup. Sweet.

When the summer comes I will get some more 6s 3000 mAh 40C batteries and then we will see where it all ends up...

Nice build anyway, good work :thumbup:

/ Stolpe

[rceccleston]

Now you got me dreaming for a T-Rex 600ESP 12S. Lol.... :lol:

Maybe in the future, but it seems like I can get more batteries for my 500ESP that I later can use for a 12S setup. Sweet.

When the summer comes I will get some more 6s 3000 mAh 40C batteries and then we will see where it all ends up...

Nice build anyway, good work :thumbup:

/ Stolpe
Good luck.:thumbup:

That's how this build started early this year... lol..

[adroc3905]

Hi rceccleston, I recently decided to go with a 600ESP over a nitro for several reasons that I won't get into right now. What I was curious about though is your build. The new ESP kits come with an Align 100A ESC (as I thought the older ones had a 75A) and unfortunately I cannot find an ESP kit w/o electronics such as the motor, esc and bec. I plan on using the same electronics as your build but do you think the 100A ESC is sufficient to power a 12s setup with that scorp motor? The cost is not an issue, its more or less having ESP electronics that are useless to me since I would be purchasing a new CCBEC, CCESC and scorp motor.

BTW nice clean looking bird. What charger are you using to charge the 6s packs?

[rceccleston]

Hi rceccleston, I recently decided to go with a 600ESP over a nitro for several reasons that I won't get into right now. What I was curious about though is your build. The new ESP kits come with an Align 100A ESC (as I thought the older ones had a 75A) and unfortunately I cannot find an ESP kit w/o electronics such as the motor, esc and bec. I plan on using the same electronics as your build but do you think the 100A ESC is sufficient to power a 12s setup with that scorp motor? The cost is not an issue, its more or less having ESP electronics that are useless to me since I would be purchasing a new CCBEC, CCESC and scorp motor.

BTW nice clean looking bird. What charger are you using to charge the 6s packs?
Unfortunately, you can only buy the ESP kits with the electronics.

However, all of the included Align electronics can be easily be sold 'as new' to fund the 12s upgrades i.e. Align ESC, motor, regulator and receiver pack.

The stock esc, motor are rated at 6s only and the regulator at 5 amps continuously, 6 burst.

Because the voltage has been doubled, the amps would be halved, with the same wattage motor. However, with the increased wattage/power of the Scorpion 4025-630kv (2.7KW 3.62HP) from the stock Align 650L-1220kv (>2KW >2.68HP) the amps have increased to 65 continuously.

With an overhead of 20 amps continuously, the Castle Creations 85HV ESC is an ideal match for the Scorpion 4025-630kv.

[adroc3905]

Cool thanks for the info.

How has the Scorp motor been as far as bearings go? I know the reputation for these has been 50/50 with regards to bearing life. Have you encountered any of these issues so far?