puffing packs on ION

[xlpro]

help!!! I cannot seem to find a pack that won't puff on my ION. I am running the stock hacker motor/controller with a 54t gear. I have puffed the 3700 evos flight power pack, TP 5300 packs, and now a 4600 TP extreme pack that I bought at IRCHA this year.

I bought a data logger to see what is going on. Arr many of you puffing 3700mah packs?

It seems that no matter what I do I manage to puff a pack!!!

The ION flies great, and I would like to be able to fly it without puffing packs.

Thanks

[misskimo]

are you making sure the voltage of each pack is with in .01 of a volt of each other before you hook them in series before you fly ?

[FrittsLogic]

Are you doing test flights to calculate your 80% cutoff time? It seems unlikely that you can be continuosly discharging greater than what the evo 20c's can handle, especially with the stock Hacker setup. Even if the voltages are mismatched, they will hold up to what you can inflict on it until the pack with the least voltage gets too low first. I would guess over discharge, which is a preventable disease.

[TomC]

Mate, puffing packs is only good for battery suppliers. Please do what Fritts suggests. Find the 80% capacity runtime. Maybe start out with 4 minutes and check the Mah's put back in and back calculate the 80% capacity runtime on each of your packs.

The 0.01 volt diff, as Tony suggests is useful as well. Using the latest 20C cells with a balancer should help ensure that this is the case.

I think that the 54T gear with a Hacker might be a bit much for a light 3700-5000 Ion setup. Maybe try a 55T, or a 56T (that's what I use). Also, 690mm instead of 700-710mm blades will help. Keep the pitch to +/-10 deg initially. You can increase this to +/- 11 deg later if all's well.

All this might help your gear wear as well. Good luck.

Cheers,

Tom C

[xlpro]

The TP Pack - 4600 (92A continuous!) extreme was not any where overdischarged, and yes the voltages are right off the 1010 chargers so they should be good. Maybe I will check the charger output with my Fluke meter and see. I am sure the 5300s have never been over discharged.

what packs are you guys running and you are not puffing them??

[xlpro]

I would agree with TomC, I think it's too much, it's just drawing too much current. I will fly it with the data logger today if it doesn't rain. I probably need some larger packs, or maybe the new formula evo packs???

I am flying 710 sabs however I have some 690s and some 710 radix which may help.

Gears are extremely smooth also.

Are any of you using the 54t and hard 3d style flying? I want to fly this darn heli without any worries!!!

[TomC]

xlpro,

I think that Chachin with a hacker, 55t gear, and 690 blades has demonstrated some fine 3d performance with 3700 Evo20 cells.

Again, I think that you are pushing it with 54t, +690mm blades, and maybe too much pitch.

Cheers,

TomC

[Chachin]

Hello, have you tached your heli with the 54t gear and the hot packs Evo/Extreme packs? It must be some pretty insane headspeed :shock:. How hot is your motor getting??

For the Hacker motor, I'd recommend going with the 55t secondary gear and a maximum of 700mm blades. Good luck!

Chachin..

[marcelino]

I bet, this is another Hacker with internal winding (wire) damage.

Can you try another Motor from someone else?


headspeed to throttle relation would possibly show what`s wrong.


Marcel

[TomC]

If this is a pre-2005 Hacker motor, maybe. The signs to watch out for are increases in both headspeed and amp draw. I know, my 1st Hacker w/54t (kit bought nov 2004, but not built till dec 2005) fried after about 50 flights.
Mr Hacker kindly replaced this for free and my new one (with kevlar wraps and better bearings) has worked very well.

The important point Chachin is making is that the new +20C batteries can really wind up the original hacker/54t to +2100 rpm headspeed. The old 8-10C batteries would only do ~ 2000 rpm.

This plus new toquey motors (Neu 1521/1.5) really stretch the ion limits (eg, gears wear), MA have not modified the stock kit for almost 2 years now. Not very good imop. A 2 stage belt drive would seem like the logical way to go.

MA seems too busy trying to do a killer 50 heli (razor) and has done nothing on the Ion. Very disappointing imop! Esp for a lot of use who have spent a lot of time and $'s trying to get the 2 staged Ion flying well.

Personally, I'd like to buy another Ion kit, and maybe a razor as well, but I will not do either until the Ion mods have been done first! I do not think that I'm alone with these thoughts. Chris and MA please chime in.

Cheers,

Tom C

[BobbySmith]

I would agree sounds like a motor Issue or Esc I have used all the packs mentioned wiht no problems Do everythingsugested above and you should be fine

[xlpro]

Bobby what gear are you running (54 or 55 or 56)? It's definately not the motor, it is also a new ESC and the motor was sent back to Hacker for upgrade a long time ago, it now has the wrapped shaft and bearing upgrade.

I will put the data logger on it maybe tomorrow if it stops raining. Is there any settings on the hacker esc that I should change from stock settings, I have the Hacker prog box.

The Motor was 155-160 degrees after the last flight. The esc was 120, the batts were 125-130

I am really surprised I puffed one of the extreme series 4600s. The other pack was fine. My head speed is 2000+ on a hot pack.

Also who is mild to hard 3ding their IONs??? And not puffing packs also?

Thanks for the help

[BobbySmith]

Also who is mild to hard 3ding their IONs??? And not puffing packs also?

Thanks for the help

Me that is all i fly is 3d
how long are you flying the packs?

[xlpro]

I have the timer set at 5 minutes, the motor is not too hot, the esc is not too hot, the packs are not too hot???? I am running 710 sabs

What gear are you running Bobby? (54,55,56?)

Also only one of the 4600 extreme series puffed.

I have some new 3700 evos, 3850 Extreme TPs, 4350 evos that I am afraid to fly right now. All these packs should work.

I had a watt meter hooked up for a brief period and I was peaking at 62 amps, hovering around 32. That was only a test in my back yard however, but that seemed in line so I didn't worry about it.

I could set my timer to 3 minutes and see what happens for a while I guess.

[misskimo]

hey , first off , if it was I , run a 3 min flight , check both packs voltage wise , if they are alot different , then resolder the esc battery lead that go to the esc , Im thinking that might be your problem , a bad solder joint

[BobbySmith]

I was running teh Neu on 48 tooth secondary 710's? I nver run 710's on the 2stage it is way to much on the power system i only use 690's even on my 12s setup only 690's give me youre whole setup pitch esc setting ex....

[xlpro]

Ok will do Bobby in the morning, i will give you my whole setup with the programmer box, pitch, etc! It's hard to believe that 710s would be too much for the system, the Hacker doesn't load up too much, but you guys are the experts, so I have some SAB 690s, we'll see how they do.

Thanks

[Chachin]

Hello, I've been flying the Hacker motor on 55tooth and 700mm blades for 100+ flights without puffing packs. The two sets of GEN2's I puffed was because they were old and worn. Now I'm flying the ProLites and all is good, they come down cooler too. It sounds like you fly real hard 3D though, where I do more of a smooth 3D. My peak currents are in the 65 amp range.

Are you breaking in the packs (mild flying) before letting it rip??

Chachin..

[xlpro]

What head speed are you getting w/55t on a hot pack?

[Chachin]

Last time I tached it, I measured between 1980 and 2010rpms at zero degree pitch right before lift off with the ProLites (freshly charged). I posted some data here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=542671&highlight=Ion+headspeed

As I got more comfortable I flew it harder and was hitting 65amps.

Chachin..

[xlpro]

Chachin,

On new evo 4350s first hover, I was pulling 40 amps and the head speed was over 2gs I am guessing, I couldn't tach it, but will tomorrow, this is on a 54t setup! So sounds like I need to go to 55t??

[MinAirChris]

I'm thinking you have a charging issue here. You mention you are using the 1010 from TP. Are you charging both flight packs at the same time, in series? If so, are you using the balancer at the same time? If so, when you plug it all in, are you getting all ten LED's? Even if you hit the reset button after the charge has commenced? I ask because there is a way to make the balancer fail if you plug it in incorrectly. This leads to a failure of the device and may lead to bad charging.

As noted above, it may be neccessary to add a tooth or two to the layshaft gear (smaller white gear) when using the newest generation of cells from TP and FP. These new cells present a higher voltage longer into the flight than any previous chemistries which in turn taxes the power system more. The original Ion design was based around the original gen 1 and two batteries from TP which had no where near the poop of todays batteries.

For the record, we are working on a belt drive system for the Ion, but it takes time to get things ironed out. This combined with the latest trend towards higher voltages and the Razor development are kinda slowing things down a bit. We'll get it there though. And it'll be right when we do.

Chris