Spartan AP2000i or Robbe Heli Command?

[Gtarling]

Mark - don't count the Helicommand's position hold as a usable feature - it isn't! I have a HC Rigid on my stretched Logo 10 and can't really tell any difference whether position hold is on or not at any height. I have an AP2000i fitted to my Logo 20, but haven't tried it in anger yet, so I can't offer a valid comparison.

[Dragon7801]

I am sure this has been covered, ive read most of the strings but just for my own peace of mind want to clarify a few queries. I am using the Spektrum DX7 for both my helis, so this rules out the Co-pilot ( Correct???), Ive got 401's on both my other helis and am looking to expand. I want to get stable for some upcoming photography plans. I am also trying to get work to expand into the field and want my gear to be upto it for trial purposes. The AP2ki seems to be the way to go for me as I can expand it up to what I need slowly. My questions would be: If i get the AP2ki and just a thermo sensor will it run with my current gear to give me stableish flight to start with, taking into account that I will be flying within some built up areas, not always park flying. Then can I go further to adding the extra gyros for added control (Is this correct in my understanding). I know its been covered but I just need clarity.

Thanks.

Harvey

[MarkWebber]

Harvey,

No need to ad gyros to the AP2000i. It's fully stabilized with just the IR sensor. Gyro's are more for flybarless purposes.

There isn't anyplace that I have flown my helis w/o being able to use the AP2000i. Except in extremely overcast conditions, of course.

[Tonystott]

Harvey, the AP2000i is an awesome piece of gear. When flying your heli with it engaged, the rotor disk will remain basically level, leving most of the pilot input to placing the heli where it needs to be for the photo. Hands-free for a few moments is no long an invitation for the heli to try and escape!

The only potential "shortcoming" is the tendency for the AP2000i to try and keep the heli away from obstacles, so it will try and prevent you flying too close to a tree or building, but it is just a slight resistance, requiring more stick to overcome. We have found that if the obstacle is more than say 30 metres away, the heli doesn't notice it.

Normally we would take off with minimal AP2k gain, and once above house/tree level, increase the gain and do a calibration. After than it is basically just a case ovf comensating for drift.. highly recommended.

[ShinOBIWAN]

The AP2000 was a disappointment for me and a friend. It sometimes works, so functionally it does as advertised but we had the usual IR issues when in built up area's and locations. It couldn't even handle the Scottish Highlands where were trying to shoot a HD video of the surroundings. What really gets to me is that Mark and Angelos were all about the inertial sensors a year or two back and they've never materialised just a bunch of hollow talk. Whenever the issue is brought up they simply keep quiet now. I'd say forget about those because after over two years of waiting it ain't gonna happen. Shame because he bought that on the strengths of this marketing.

Anyway earlier this year he moved over to the helicommand 3A and it works brilliantly for AP work. The 3A position mode is a joke and I'd say forget about even using that, it really isn't a tool for AP and is maybe only any use for less than 2m height beginner hover training. The horizontal mode is great though. If your looking to buy I'd say avoid the AP2000, its old hat and not as flexible as the 3A.

Spartan should stick to gyro's, now those are really nice. Can't fault my 760.

[Dragon7801]

Thanks for the reply guys. Much apprieciated. It will give me a few things to think about and some serious discussion to follow. Im just getting into the AP side of helis for my own fun and its great what little ive done but ill get into it more and more and im sure to have a thousand more question.

[Griffo]

Both units have their advantages and disadvantages and I am now using the HC Rigid after going flybarless but as far as holding a hands off hover I have found that my AP2000i was a clear winner. You just have to set up and trim it correctly.

This video was taken whilst setting up the AP2000i. Long and boring but all high altitude hovers were held with the stabiliser on.

http://www.vimeo.com/950655

I'd also add that the HC unit is probably better for doing aerial video work since you can program the resistance to pilot input whilst the horizontal mode is on. This helps if you are in forward flight and just leave Horizontal mode on for the extra level of stability.

[psindrup]

Simply… with the stabiliser off you put the helicopter in a perfect hover, hit the calibrate switch on the transmitter and you are done!
Angelos (Spartan RC)

Hi Angelos

Does that mean that the AP2000I requires a separate "calibration channel"?

On a separate note: Is a 7 channel transmitter (DX7) enough, or do you need another "slider" (step less) channel?

Thanks a million

Peter

[MarkWebber]

A slider is not required but is a nice addition. Depending on your tx programming flexability, you may not require a seperate channel. With my 9C, I am able to set the calibration mix to activate with one channel. To get my 9303 to work to my liking, I needed 2 channels. The JR just is not as flexible as the Futaba.
If you need the spare channel, it is possible to move your gyro remote gain to the AP2000i servo slot #4, freeing a channel on your tx.

[jockstrap]

Mark,

How do I use the #4 servo channel for my gyro gain ?

I plug the gyro gain cable into servo #4 output on the ap-2000i, I guess that's obvious.
But with no input controls for the channel - what settings do I use on the ap-2000i to set the gain? do i use endpoint or trim or both?

If I normally use 80% gain on my gyro can you please suggest what settings on the AP-2000i I would change to emulate this...

any help appreciated...

PS: The setup is on a t-rex using sr-3 mode swash I think (from memory as not at home atm..)

[MarkWebber]

If moving from the rx to the AP2000i on a heli that has already been set up, the quick way is this...using a spare servo, plug into your rx gain channel while in HH mode, note the position of the servo horn, move the servo to slot #4 on the AP2000i. Adjust Trm4 in the AP2000i menu until the servo horn is back in the position previously noted.

If this is a new setup, adjust Trm4 until your gyro shows HH mode. Start your test flights with a low % on Trm4. On my setups, I don't think I've ever gotten much above 17% before it started to wag. Back off as normal if you get wag.

[aramsdell]

you beat me Mark

[jockstrap]

Wow - simple... thanks Mark... and aramsdell...

It's a new re-build so i'll be setting up the gyro first in the RX - It's a gy401 so is usually around 80% on the channel.. then i'll do the servo trick and swap to #4 on the ap-2000i.

What i was going to do before knowing this gem was to use one of the following e-sky servo testers to emulate the gain channel...

I was also thinking of possibly using one on the gain channel of the ap-2000i as well to free up another channel and thus have channels avl for trigger and tilt on a DX7.

The problem with using it on the ap-2000i would mean that i would be flying with the stabilization constantly on - it would be lower gain probably around 35-40%... but it will be for AP use anyway... As I have just started AP, do you see any concerns with flying permanently with stabilization on ?

[MarkWebber]

I've flown from takeoff-landing with the stabilization active. I didn't run in to any issues. You won't be able to use the calibration feature but it's not required, per se.
I usually kept the gain around 50% when doing so.

[aramsdell]

Be sure that your IR sensor absolutely will NOT move. I have mine on with double sided tape and when it gets warm it feels loose. If it were to fall off without being able to shut it down could be .... welll.......baaaad.

[MarkWebber]

Yes, it would be akin to trying to fly with your gyro flopping around loose.:shock:
I use a good tape on mine. I haven't lost one yet...well, there was that one that the flybar removed for me while test flying over snow...the heli wasn't flying anylonger so loss of sensor wasn't much of an issue, if you know what I mean:roll:

[SeaHawk]

Yes, it would be akin to trying to fly with your gyro flopping around loose

I did that once, my helicopter ended inside a prison yard and I had to knock on the door to ask for it back.

[jockstrap]

Thanks guys,

Will take all that good advice into account...

Flew the 450 with the ap-2000i on it the other day for the first time - was on my hurricane 550 before and had not played with it really that much..

All seems to be going well - the AP-2000i really settled the little 450 right down... previous video was all over the place whilst trying to keep the heli hovering at height, now it's good and only moves around when i'm moving it too much...

I must say - the 450 is bloody "Crash proof" now.... no kidding... barr a direct dive to the ground or cutting throttle, I did my best to just fly in any odd direction and format possible and the thing would just not go down! Really amazing.. had i put this on my 450 when I first got it off Mark and whilst I was learning nose-in, it would have paid for itself already...

Today I was practicing taking some video and the sun was low in the afternoon - I was buzzing around some homes being constructed in my area and they wee about 100m away... well the 450 get's quite small that far and I simply lost all orientation of it... I could see it doing 360's in both directions and leaning hear and there as I tried to regain orientation - but the 450 just simply stayed in the air "tumbling" level.. lol... i regained control and flew back... gotta be happy with that :)

I must say - with the AP-2000i I can fly at least 3 times higher and further without fear now and a lot more steady as well... as well as flying in much more awkward positions than normally possible becase if my orientation fails, the heli just floats around till I regain control... my aim is to take stills so i see no issue with that now - but just practicing with video for the moment till i get my shutter control sorted out.

Here are some sample pics..

Keep in mind - i was simply doing 640x480 std res video and this is just a lowres stil lfrom that so the quality is not there, it's just to show you how the flight whent thou!

[dviry]

Even the current documentation specifies "FL-180 Altitude sensor", but I can't seem to find this device anywhere (would be nice to know highest altitude as already supported in the current firmware). That and of course holding altitude... ;)

Any ideas whether this functionality will EVER be released? Original thread is from 2006... Has the development totally stopped for AP2000i?

Thanks


* Max altitude display (requires altitude sensor). Altitude hold to follow in future f/w release.

Angelos (Spartan RC)

[mstram]

.....
All seems to be going well - the AP-2000i really settled the little 450 right down... previous video was all over the place whilst trying to keep the heli hovering at height, now it's good and only moves around when i'm moving it too much...

I must say - the 450 is bloody "Crash proof" now.... no kidding... barr a direct dive to the ground or cutting throttle, I did my best to just fly in any odd direction and format possible and the thing would just not go down! Really amazing.. had i put this on my 450 when I first got it off Mark and whilst I was learning nose-in, it would have paid for itself already...



Having read this entire thread, I'm convinced that it works, still I'd love to see some video of "unusual recoveries", with the gain set at different levels.

I downloaded the demo video from the spartan web site, and while it does show the heli hovering hands off (which I know is amazing in itself), it appears that the heli was first flown into a reasonably level / stabile attitude before the sticks were released.

I'm interested in eventually getting into AP, but my primary interest now is in using the unit for assisting with flight training (my own !). I've been "flying" on the sim for probably close to 50 hrs+, and am improving, but still crashing when the heli "gets away" from me ... (nose in / tail down / banked /moving backwards is a particular "killer" attidude !)

I don't even have a heli yet, maybe by the time I can afford one, I won't need the AP2k ;) .. though I doubt it. And flying a real $$$ machine is for sure going to be different than a sim !

Also, it would seem that most people here are apparently using this unit on "450" or larger machines for the most part? I wonder how well this unit would work on one of the "micro" helis ? True, that the unit could cost more than the heli, but the savings in repair costs would be worh it !

Mike

[jockstrap]

Mike,

Sorry for the lack of video's - but have no-one to take them for me :(

All I can say is it works very well - late in the afternoon on cold days loweres the sensitivity but if you are flying on an average day with an hour or so light left it's fine...

I'm using it on a 450 as that's the bird I want to use for AP - I had it originally on my hurricane 550 and worked a treat... fits fine on the hurricane - fitting it on the 450 is actually quite a tight squeeze - so forget a micro heli!!!! Might be able too but would weigh it down and look a total mess - lol

Also - the ap-2000i requires a 7 chanel receiver as it uses an extra channel for gain - there is another problem with mounting on a micro heli as now you would need an ar7000 receiver which is much larger - however you could get away with a 6ch receiver using the 4th output on the spartan to drive fixed gain only on the gyro and use the gyro gain channel for the spartan...

The hardest part of the stabilizer is getting used to calibrating it each day... whilst you don't really have too - I find it better if you do...

If you have a really level take off pad - you can place the hlei on the ground and flick the calibrate switch as you walk away from it. Then take off normally and enable the stabilizer - I find this works quite well as I take off from a flat cricket pitch a lot at the local park... if you come back the next day and the weather is fine or similar, you usually don't have to re-calibrate - buy I recon it's better too...

If you don't have level ground then you need to take off and maintain a very level strady hover and flick the calibrate switch... should be fine then but it takes a few tries to get used to doing this...

even with a perfect calibration - the heli does drift so don't think it's going to hover startionary in front of you -never will.. just think of a feather in the air - it drifts with the wind.. so will the heli... unless it's dead calm, then you might get it staying quite still without moving much - but it would have needed to be calibrated perfectally... instead, expect a slow walking pace drift in whatever diretion it choses as a result of calibration flaws.

[jockstrap]

MSTRAM - re the following..

"I'm interested in eventually getting into AP, but my primary interest now is in using the unit for assisting with flight training (my own !). I've been "flying" on the sim for probably close to 50 hrs+, and am improving, but still crashing when the heli "gets away" from me ... (nose in / tail down / banked /moving backwards is a particular "killer" attidude !) "

Given what I said earlier about calibrating - if you can't hover stable yet - you will need a good level takeoff area to calibrate - you could put a small buble-level on the sensor and move the heli around till level when calibrating... you only need to calibarte once that day unless the weather changes significantly...

An open space like a park is highly advisable to newbies and the ap-2000i will work in closer areas but can sometimes react unexpectidly and that where your normal skills would be required - so start in open areas only and venture slowly into more closed areas only as your hovering and general skills get much better...

you can (and I often do) take off with the stabilizer on but general procedure is to take off, climb to a comfortable height and enable it - becasue if it's calibrated incorrectly for any reason you can have time to react and switch it off again... once you get confident at calibrating (which is really easy, just need to do it a few times) you can take off with it on as you will see if the heli is trying to fly the wrong way as it gets light on the skids - but if you have never flown you won't have these skills yet so enabling in flight may be the best....

Truely - you will need someone with a little heli experience with you and maybe to get the heli into the air the first few times and then hand over the controls - or even better with a buddy cord...

[mstram]

Mike,

Sorry for the lack of video's - but have no-one to take them for me :(
.

You have the AP2000, why do you need someone to video ? :YeaBaby:

Then again, if the sim is any indication, a Trex can move REALLY fast when tilted more than a "few" degrees :)

Thanks for all the info, have you used the FMA "copilot" products?

Mike

[jockstrap]

Havn't used the co-pilot.. However the IR sensor for the ap2000i is the same FMA sensor.

[Jay]

I use the FMA Co-pilot on one Raptor and the AP2000i on another Raptor, both work pretty well.
The FMA is calibrated on the ground, and the AP2000i in the air, both are easy enough but I think I like the Ap2000i a little better.
I have found that I can calibrate the AP2000i in hover while correcting for a cross wind, which is great if you plan to fly the heli in only one direction while taking your pics. It is not perfect but it is better than trying to fight the heli on a windy day while lining up your photos