Align 3G FBL on my 12s Trex 600CF

[OnTheSnap]

So I've received my shiny new toy, and in one night I've got it all installed and ready for a maiden this weekend. I recently installed a vBar on my Protos carbon (just a month ago), so I'm eager to compare the performance of the two systems. Although I'm sure a direct comparison will be slightly distorted by the vastly different helicopters I have them on. I do have about 60 flights on the vBar and I have it extremely dialed in. I've made good use of the piro optimization and torque pre-comp, which are notable missing features from the Align unit. My initial motivation for a vbar was to help me as I learn Piro flips. So far it has performed as advertised and it has helped me advance faster then what i could manage on my flybar heli's in this area.

The installation was truly trivial. The head came pre-assembled, but I opted to rebuild it anyway. Turns out this was a waste of time, because Align used loctite, and took great care to assemble it correctly. The old green color of the 600 CF parts looks pretty wretched in contrast to the shiny silver head. But owell, as long as it flies well who cares how it looks (OK I care! But I don't want to care!). walking through the setup steps, I found myself really missing the vBar trim menu. I hate popping and twisting links and really preferred doing it all in software. Yes I'm spoiled.

I did run into one snafu which is that the included swash balls are designed for the new ESP swash (and maybe there is an updated swash for the CF and mine is really old?). The thread size is too large for the older CF swash. So I had to improvise on the grip links by boring out some standard ball links. I plan on digging around to see if I can find a different swash ball or link, but my current solution works fine.

She's an older bird, but on a modern power 12s power system she doesn't fail to impress. I'm really looking forward to giving it a whirl this weekend. I recently acquired some Radix Blades, and I'm anxious to see how it performs, especially considering that Align probably only verified Align gear.

One of my favorite 600 activities is the auto. I'm anxious to try several this weekend to see how the 3g changes the behavior and how stable it is under low head speeds. I only do the standard variety, so we'll have to wait and hear how well the inverted autos perform from someone else.

Here's my setup:
-Trex 600e CF
-12s power system
-85HV ESC
-Scorpion 4025-630kV motor
-2x Turnigy 2650mah 40C batteries
-Radix YB blades
-DS610x3
-BLS251
-CC Bec Pro, 6V (including the BLS)

I've posted some pics below. Please excuse the filthy wiring. My Protos is wired to perfection (check out pics in my album). The 600 was bought used, and I haven't bothered to polish it up yet. I'm so ashamed! :oops:

I'll report back with my full maiden experience on Saturday.

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135384&stc=1&d=1264147812

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135385&stc=1&d=1264147812


http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135386&stc=1&d=1264147812

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135387&stc=1&d=1264147812


http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135388&stc=1&d=1264147812

[Lasse Baardseth]

I cant wait to hear how your test comes out;)

Thank you for sharing:hug:

Now go out and fly:whip

[JesusFreak]

Ditto!

[Felt]

Yea, I cant wait to read your review! Good Luck.

[steph280]

Congratulations on your beautiful setup!

I actually ran into the same swash ball sizing issue you had. Seeing a ESP swash was $40, I just picked it up, and chose the silver color to match the head.

You could use the subtrim to center your servos, followed by the DIR setup procedures. And in flight you can use your trim tabs to trim the heli, although it shouldn't needed if you have enough gain.

cyclic roll rates are adjusted with swash mixing percentage in radio.

I love the way mine flies. Got 4 packs charged up ready for this weekend.

Good luck with your maiden!

[OnTheSnap]

Thanks for the feedback Steph! So i was under the (false?) impression that I couldn't use an ESP swash on a 600E servo layout. It sounds like I can? Can you post a pic of your head setup? Much appreciated!

I opted to get the mechanical setup perfect to minimize any possibility of weird behaviors. But I do realize I can play with sub-trim to get a similar effect.

[steph280]

Yup the ESP swash is a drop in fit! The swashplate comes with provision for either the front A-arm type or the back pin type antirotation guide.

I agree mechanical setup is the "proper" way to set it up. But in some cases (like my 500) there is no way I can make all servo horns perfectly horizontal since there is only one spline. Thank god for subtrims.

[OnTheSnap]

Is this the right part?
http://www.readyheli.com/HN6101QF_Align_T_Rex_600_CCPM_Metal_Swashplate_S_p/hn6101qf.htm

The new swash has a 3mm thread, where the old one was 2mm?

Thanks!

[steph280]

yup that is the one. I think the old balls are 2.5mm. But either way they are too small.

[JesusFreak]

Guys:

I'm a bit confused? Are the swash plates different for the FBL setup? I was under the impression you could use the existing swash plates? I have a QuickUK swash on my 600, and really would prefer to stick with it. What's different about the swash or the balls?

[OnTheSnap]

I have the old CF swash which uses a 2.5mm thread on the swash balls. The 3g kit somes with 2 new swash balls that connect to the link between the swash and blade grips. This link is 2.5mm (oversized) and uses oversized ball links that are a larger diameter then the stock ball links.

So, if you want to use the new "bigger" balls and links, you need a new swash that has 3mm threads for the balls. I made mine work by modifying the stock plastic ball links to fit the fat link rod.

So, to get a new swash, you'll need to spend another $43 plus shipping. Would have been nice if they included additional balls, but I understand my model is sort of "ancient".

[JesusFreak]

I have no clue what the thread size is on mine. I guess I can always drill and tap my QuickUK swash if it's the wrong size. I got my TREX600 a few years back, but it had been revised a couple times from the original kits.

[lgalarza]

Wow, Nice pics. Incredible machine. You enjoy it

[Slyster]

any official first hand review yet snap?

[OnTheSnap]

Not yet. Maiden is tomorrow AM. It has been rain all week here in California.

I will write up a "normal" guys review of the system and flight performance after I've had some time to fly it a bit. I'll focus on what I think the differences are between my vBar and the 3g. I'm sure plenty of people are interested in the benefits between a premium and mid range FBL system. As am I!

[Slyster]

Can't wait! I have 2 mikados already but think I'll get the 3G for my 450 Pro. Good luck, have fun, and take good notes!

[rcdepothobbies]

Nice setup :thumbup:

I got mine maiden today, it flies really well I love it and will fly more this weekend...:thumbup:

Here's my setup:
-Trex 600ESP
-12s power system
-110HV ESC
-Scorpion 4035-560kV motor
-2x Turnigy 3000mah 30C batteries
-Radix YB blades
-8717x3
-DS650
-CC Bec Pro, 6V





So I've received my shiny new toy, and in one night I've got it all installed and ready for a maiden this weekend. I recently installed a vBar on my Protos carbon (just a month ago), so I'm eager to compare the performance of the two systems. Although I'm sure a direct comparison will be slightly distorted by the vastly different helicopters I have them on. I do have about 60 flights on the vBar and I have it extremely dialed in. I've made good use of the piro optimization and torque pre-comp, which are notable missing features from the Align unit. My initial motivation for a vbar was to help me as I learn Piro flips. So far it has performed as advertised and it has helped me advance faster then what i could manage on my flybar heli's in this area.

The installation was truly trivial. The head came pre-assembled, but I opted to rebuild it anyway. Turns out this was a waste of time, because Align used loctite, and took great care to assemble it correctly. The old green color of the 600 CF parts looks pretty wretched in contrast to the shiny silver head. But owell, as long as it flies well who cares how it looks (OK I care! But I don't want to care!). walking through the setup steps, I found myself really missing the vBar trim menu. I hate popping and twisting links and really preferred doing it all in software. Yes I'm spoiled.

I did run into one snafu which is that the included swash balls are designed for the new ESP swash (and maybe there is an updated swash for the CF and mine is really old?). The thread size is too large for the older CF swash. So I had to improvise on the grip links by boring out some standard ball links. I plan on digging around to see if I can find a different swash ball or link, but my current solution works fine.

She's an older bird, but on a modern power 12s power system she doesn't fail to impress. I'm really looking forward to giving it a whirl this weekend. I recently acquired some Radix Blades, and I'm anxious to see how it performs, especially considering that Align probably only verified Align gear.

One of my favorite 600 activities is the auto. I'm anxious to try several this weekend to see how the 3g changes the behavior and how stable it is under low head speeds. I only do the standard variety, so we'll have to wait and hear how well the inverted autos perform from someone else.

Here's my setup:
-Trex 600e CF
-12s power system
-85HV ESC
-Scorpion 4025-630kV motor
-2x Turnigy 2650mah 40C batteries
-Radix YB blades
-DS610x3
-BLS251
-CC Bec Pro, 6V (including the BLS)

I've posted some pics below. Please excuse the filthy wiring. My Protos is wired to perfection (check out pics in my album). The 600 was bought used, and I haven't bothered to polish it up yet. I'm so ashamed! :oops:

I'll report back with my full maiden experience on Saturday.

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135384&stc=1&d=1264147812

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135385&stc=1&d=1264147812


http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135386&stc=1&d=1264147812

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135387&stc=1&d=1264147812


http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135388&stc=1&d=1264147812

[Slyster]

ummmmm.... 3G FBL Rcdepot?????? Tell us your experience so far I'd love to here your thoughts... (although this thread is snaps you should probably make your own for that)

[OnTheSnap]

Feel free to hijack! Any thoughts on how the 600 flies in this thread are welcome!

[JesusFreak]

Looking forward to your maiden report. I have one on order. Saw another thread with a dead unit. Hope that is not a harbinger of QC to come on this unit.

[OnTheSnap]

Flight report!

OK, this turned out to be way longer than I anticipated. Somehow I felt inspired to talk forever here since I’m one of the early “normal” guys to get a system installed and up in the air. I’ve only had a single day on the 3g, so take this opinion as a first impression. Lots of it could be wrong!

My first day out with the new system was generally a success. I’m uploading a video of one of my flights after a few hours tweaking with the gain and trying to get things dialed in. It should be up in a couple of hours.
I’ll try to summarize my experience and impressions the best I can, as well as articulate the flight experience in contrast to my vBar Protos. Obviously they are very different heli’s so it’s hard to do a direct comparison of the two. But I’ll try to focus on what the FBL system brings to my flying experience. This is all my opinion. So please don’t flame me if I’m flat out wrong! But this is what public forums are all about. Personal opinions.

I popped up in the first hover and had a trim issue right away. The heli wanted to drift back and I had to add quite a bit of trim to get in a solid hover. With the vBar and auto trim function, I’ve never had to use trim. I expected this to happen based on the latest FAQ, so I moved on without too much concern. I hovered for a few minutes and did a few flips and noticed immediately that the tail wasn’t holding. Time to start cranking up the tail gain. I landed after a couple of minutes to inspect the head, links and FBL electronics to make sure there were no issues with the install before trying to fly it harder (well, at least as hard as I’m capable).

On the next flight I started to try elevator tic tocs. During the tic tocs I had a really bad wobble, and my first instinct was that the gain was too high. However, the consensus among my friends seemed to be that a wobble should be corrected with a higher gain(huh?). I spent the next flight with even higher gain and things seemed to get worse. Aileron tic tocs were clean however.

Finally on the next flight I dropped the cyclic gain to around 40. It’s obviously hard to tell what the actual gain is since all you have is a POT to twist. Things suddenly got much better (but not perfect). In the meantime, I had been slowly cranking up the gain on the tail to get things locked in. It’s clear from my flights today that there is no communication between the cyclic control software and the tail control. The tail gyro seems to act completely independently of the cyclic. The system doesn’t have torque pre-compensation, and the tail just reacts to hard cyclic maneuvers instead of being one step ahead of the additional load like my vBar. So the tail never worked as well as what I’ve been able to achieve on my Protos vBar.

On the next flight I started to gain some confidence in the system and open up my flight envelope a bit. I was able to form a pretty good initial impression of how the system performs. I still haven’t worked out all of the wobble in elevator tic tocs, so I probably need to reduce gain a bit more. But I'm concerned how this will effect overall performance.

I did do an auto in the video flight to see if the system behaved well. See my comments below. :bawl

Here are the highlights. I included a brief comparison to vBar based on my initial impressions. Note that this will for sure change as I get more flights on the heli. Again, this is all my opinion! Do not take it as fact.

System Setup:
Disclaimer. I’m a very technical guy and I take great pleasure in really complex things. So I really don’t appreciate “dumbed down” interfaces. I don’t want to be protected from “advanced” settings. I really didn’t enjoy how much time I had to spend with the mechanical setup when all the fine tuning could be done in the 3g software. The vBar really shines in this area, and for me was much easier to set up perfectly. I also really liked getting a friends profile for the Protos and starting there. Setup was almost instant. So overall I give a strong nod in favor for vbar in this area.

Hovering/Inverted hovering:
3g: The heli feels much more “neutral” where upright and inverted hovering ‘feel’ the same. Inverted was pretty much hands off. With the flybar inverted hovering on the 600 generally took a lot more corrections to keep it in one place. I was happy to see that the trim I applied to get a solid upright hover didn’t work against me when I was inverted.
vBar comparison: I would say that the hovering improvement is close between the two systems. The neutral behavior between inverted and upright is a very welcome improvement

Forward flight:
3g: Forward flight feels fast and locked in. I was able to do high speed passes without any pitching tendencies. High speed flight is pretty much hands off.
vBar comparison: Both systems provide the same benefits in this aspect of flight

Backwards flight:
3g: Backwards flight seemed solid with no bad tendencies or tail blow outs. With a flybar I tended to fight the aerodynamics of the heli a bit and work to keep the tail in position. The 3g corrected this behavior and backwards flight felt the same as forward flight.
vBar comparison: Both systems provide the same benefits in this aspect of flight

Tail holding power:
3g: The tail on the 3g feels like a traditional gyro. Tuning of the tail is exactly the same as a separate gyro system. Loading up the head results in a “too late” response from the tail. So higher gains are required to minimize the effect.
vBar: The 3g is no competition for the vBar in this area. Torque pre-compensation has provided me with a tail performance I’ve never seen before. Note though that I am comparing to different helis. So it’s not a true apples to apples comparison.

Tic Tocs:
3g: I was literally startled by the quality of my aileron tic tocs on the 3g. With the flybar, I had to input constant elevator corrects to keep the heli parallel to the flight line. With the 3g, the heli literally just stuck in place! It was astounding and made me look like a better pilot then I am. I think the 3g really cleaned up this aspect of my 600.
Now elevator tic tocs were another story. From the beginning I had bad wobbling with any aggressive collective moves. I eventually dialed down the elevator gain to where I was happier with it. But I still have more work to do here.
vBar: I make good use of the stick response settings (I like “Hard 3D”) and collective pump. These attributes allow be to do much faster and more aggressive maneuvers with less finger movement. vBar wins hands down in this category.

Funnels:
3g: With my initial gain problems, I had a funny wobbling in all of my funnels. After dropping the gain to ~40ish, things started to improve quite a bit. Funnels were easier to hold then with the flybar, but they required quite a bit of tail correction during the maneuver
vBar: I don’t what’s in the vbar software, but I can’t believe how well my Protos vbar funnels. This is an area where I’m comparing apples to oranges on 2 different helicopters. But somehow the Protos feels more coordinated in a funnel and I need almost no corrections to maintain perfect large funnels in ay orientation. So for me, vBar is better in this area probably due to the integration of the tail and cyclic gyros.

Piros:
I’m not capable of complete piro flips yet, so my depth in this area is not too deep. I only performed a few upright and inverted piros today on the 3g.
3g: Piros are definitely improved over a flybar but they still seem to wander off and wobble a bit. Align has a lot of work to do in this area to reach the level of vBar
vBar: Piro compensation makes vBar superior in this area. The 3g seemed to show good improvement over my flybar setup, but it wasn’t close to the consistency of my vBar.

Power improvement:
My 12s 600 seemed vastly more powerful with the FBL system. Even with my lesser batteries it felt much more punchy in the air and much less likely to bog. The heli seemed much faster and more impressive. I haven’t charged my packs yet so I can’t comment on power consumption. But it was a rocket even on my 3000mah 12s 20C packs.

Autos:
Oh boy. First I should mention I haven’t done autos on the Protos vbar since installing the system. Most of my autos up to now have been on the 600 with the flybar. I recently started to do them on my 450. I’m not experienced at doing autos on a FBL system so I can’t draw a comparison to my vBar. I’ve done many hundreds of autos on the 600 with a flybar. So I’m very familiar with how it performs.
As you’ll see in the video, I went with a fast approach and a slightly late th-hold at maybe 150 feet. The decent was fine, and I had tons of head speed left through the flair. I was landing side in, and slowly bleeding off head speed to land. I made a slight right correction and the heli went into a hard right roll. RABBIT EARS! The heli wasn’t damaged other than a slight boom strike dent and little chip in the blades. The soft wet ground certainly helped.

Now I can’t say that the 3g is any different from other systems, but I would not expect a small blip of cyclic to trigger a hard continuous roll to the right that I couldn’t counter.

All of my landings prior to that auto are with throttle hold from about 5 feet. The heli drops flat with no cyclic input. I will probably try an auto again and see if I can land it by making my landing corrections early (during the flair) and do a hands off bleed of head speed until I land. But it’s clear to me I’ve lost my favorite auto machine by installing the 3g system. This makes me very sad and I ultimately plan on going with a system that supports bank switching (likely a SK720) where I can setup a profile that works with autos. When this happens I’ll move the 3g to my 450.

Now if I’m willing to give up on autos on the 600e, I would definitely have no issue leaving the system on the 600. It's a great improvement. Hopefully better pilots can chime in with some advice on performing autos on the 3g.

Summary:
So how does the system feel? Well after struggling through lots of wobbly tic tocs and weird funnels, eventually I was very happy with the results. But I'm still concerned that I may not be able to get high enough gain on the elevator. The system provides a huge boost in flight performance for intermediate pilots like myself. The heli feels way more neutral, and for the most part you do more flying then correcting for funny behaviors of the helicopter. You get a good heading hold effect in flight which is for me is one of best characteristics of FBL flight. The system really cleaned up and “neutralized” the flight of my 600 and it for sure is a worthy upgrade. I give the system thumbs up, but I still have some serious concerns with wobbling on elevator tic tocs and autos.

The auto tip over was a big disappointment for me. Hopefully others will master autos on the system and I can get some advice on how to approach the next one.

Flight Video - shows the init "twitch" and my rabbit ear auto at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKkSz-_exwY

I hope you find my opinion helpful!

[Slyster]

:clappp:clappp:clappp

Now THAT was the most interesting read of the week for me.

Thanks for taking the time Snap!

Going off to watch your video now.

[Slyster]

One question... I've been trying to think about it.. what is "Team RF".. I keep thinking Real Flight but that can't be right? Googling comes up with car audio?

And what is that green stuff you put over the snow? Carpet? And geeze put on a jacket your going to die of hypothermia!

[OnTheSnap]

Haha. You have to move to a warmer climate if you want to see grass all year round.

[rubbersoul]

we should fly our 3g systems together sometime. where do you fly?