Tired of waiting for the new Razor

[misskimo]

yeh ! Bert , hows the 690 Razor doing ?????? :mrgreen:

[Rodney]

Hello super razor good bye ION. Anyone else catching on? Witch from what I hear the long Razor is 1/2 lb lighter than Ion anyway.

[Bert Kammerer]

The long Razor is a couple ounces over 9 Lbs with Evo 3700 packs. It is way to early to tell how this machine will perform long term and/or if it will be ever released. So far there are no plans at all for its release. MA is currently concentrating on the MXR Razor 600, I know most of the parts are already in and ready, just waiting on a couple of parts and kits will start to be seen. We're getting very, very close guys :)

[Supersaying4]

How much is this heli with batteries?
Im thinking about getting a ele coppter.

[Bert Kammerer]

Hi Tim, hope you're doing well. You're looking at approx $640 for the kit, $150 to $250.00 for the speed controller (depending on the one you choose), $150 to $300 for the motor and then about $400.00 for a set of batteries. Of course you need to add servos, receiver, gyro, etc.

[TomC]

Sorry guys, I got tired of waiting again an bought myself an Al framed Trex600 today. I had put myself on a list with our local Align dealer wattsuprc.com.au for a kit without the Align motor/esc. There was no way I was going to run it with the align stock 6s setup. Anyway, one came up today and I picked it up (an early Xmas present). It cost $A500, delivered (~$US370). I should get it within 2 days.

I'm going to run it with my Ion Hacker and my 2x5s1p 3700 Evo20 packs. I'll move my Neu and a 52T gear over to the Ion and hope that it does not wear out before Chris's 2 stage belt drive shows up!

I'm not saying I'll never buy a Razor, but it won't be in 2006!

Cheers,

Tom C

[TomC]

I re-installed my Neu 1521/1.5y, with the new bearings that Steve installed at no cost. With a 52t secondary gear I'm getting a solid 1850 rpm with 100% flat non-gov idle-up. I'm getting 8 min runtime with 10s1p 3700 Evo20's putting back 28-3000 mah's. About 0.5 min more than my old Hacker, even though the neu weighs +100g more. I'm running the Hacker 77 esc at the same setting (0 deg timing). Overall performance is about the same, or a little better than with the Hacker/56t gear.

After only 10 flights, the secondary gear wear is minimal. Although I need to test this out a bit more, I think it is mainly due to re-polishing the motor pinion a bit more and also adjusting the bottom motor mount so that the rubber puts a little pressure on the rearward end of the motor. I think that this helps stop the neu motor from jerking back a bit under load, and driving into the secondary gear.

Anyway, all seems well with the neu. I hope the Hacker works out ok on the Trex600 (wish it was trying it out on a Razor). I still want to try the Neu on a stronger setup but I'll wait until Chris's new Ion belt drive shows up,

As an aside, a guy showed up at our field today with a Trex600 and Actro 24-4, Kontronik 55-10-32 esc, 10s1p (2x5s1p) 3700 evo20's and 18t, 0.7 mod steel Mikado (logo) pinion. Using 80% gov mode, I tacked him at 2000 hs and this did not vary more than +/-50rpm. I think he was using 600mm nhp blades?

Personally (or in vidieos) I have never seen any heli, nitro, or electric, perform as strongly. It was sick and scary!

After ~5 min (he is still breaking in the packs) the motor, esc, and batteries were barely warm. He left without charging, but based on discussions on previous runs, I guestimate that he would have put back 24-2700 mha's.

This looks like a pretty hard setup for even the Razor to beat!

Cheers,

Tom C

[EricLarson]

The problem with the tuned out setups in the light weight heli's is that you only need 1 part number when you hit the ground.... The kit.

One of the strongest machines I ever saw in the air was Andy's logo last year at IRCHA with the orbit. Wow... only issue was nuking packs and I have seen what was left of his heli's after crashes. That guy can fly that logo like no other.

The other issue is how they actually fly. What is the feel, how does it fly fast, slow, tail control, ect. We will just have to wait for public opinion on that one.

Keep in mind flying styles are all different. I am flying the Neu 1521/1.5 in a Razor with 710's. It weighs in just under 10 lbs with 4350 - 10S packs and I get 4.5-5 min flight time putting back 3900 mah. It is spinning 2080 unloaded. It is a kick in the pants to fly.

[TomC]

Just a quick update,

I've been flying my Trex600 with my old stock Ion hacker motor/esc and 10s1p 3700 Evo20's for about a month now. On 10s this heli rocks! I'm a little surprised that MA have not used or recomneded the old hacker setup for the razor. Maybe they did not want to admit that it was a poor setup with the Ion with better +20c batteries?

The only 10s upgrades the trex600 needs are a better motor pinion and thrust bearings on the tail. I'm using a Mikado 10t 0.7 mod steel one that is working fine. The tail thrust bearings should be available next week or two from Align. Also, a 188t straight main gear option would be nice.

At about 1/2 the price of a Razor, I think that this is a real bargin.

Also, Align will be coming out with a shaft drive option soon, something that MA should have done with the Razor to begin with imop. I guess that Align will also be putting out a 90 sized heli soon, at about 1/2 the price of an Ion.

Right now, my trex600 (on 10s1p's) and Swift (on 5s1p's) are a lot more fun to fly than my Ion.

I hope that the new Ion belt drive will help unleash the power of the neu.

Cheers,

Tom C

[EricLarson]

Ya I used the Hacker C50 some and had not very good results. Sean at hacker also ran the #'s and we both agreed that the C50 was not a good choice for the Razor. The C50 is a good motor, it just has some very serious heating issue when used in the power class that we are shooting for. In a lower power class (ie. Trex flown sport or moderate 3D) it will probably work fine.

The Hacker out runner worked much better and specs out a lot better for our use in the Razor.

The Razor also allows for any gear ratio up to about 21:1.

The Razor is definitely a LOT different than the Trex :cool: I know Tim is busting to ship kits and only once they hit the market will the feedback answer what people like.

[TomC]

Eric,

In a lower power class like and Ion-x the Hacker C50/15XL and 77 heli esc work pretty good. MA is still selling these hacker motor/esc combos for the Ion.

I also noticed that none of the pre-production Razor guys are using a Hacker 77 heli esc. I guess that this is another case of 'ok for a lower class heli like the Ion but not good enough for the Razor'.

If the Razor needs more power than this, it must be a real energy/battery hog!

It will be interesting to see how the Razor actually compares to the trex 600 after a few people test this out. I suspect that the main difference is going to be $'s spent, but we'll see.

Cheers,

Tom C

[Clintstone]

Tom, the reason we were all running the Jazz ESC was for a baseline. Now that the testing is done you will probably see many other ESC ran. I plan on running the CC HV 85 and I am running the HV110 on my ION. I have been running the 45-08 with the Jazz and this setup is very efficient and flys great. The TREX should be a rocket and it sounds as if you are truely having fun and that is what it is about isn't it. Let me know how everything is running after 500 flights as that is what is on my Razor. I think electrics are cool as they don't wear things out like other power systems. Every time a product gets better we all win. Thanks

[TomC]

Clint,

Of course you are right, we are having fun, and that's the most important thing. 500 Flights might take me a while, maybe another +6 months or so. Man you guys must fly like +10 flights/day every day!

Cheers,

Tom C

[Clintstone]

Lights in the backyard, South GA weather..........got to love it. It is cold and raining now..............

[Bert Kammerer]

It is beautiful in Springfield, Missouri :mrgreen:

[EricLarson]

TomC,

The hacker ESC works but it has some major limitations. #1 the gov does not work. #2 the soft start is not good at all. The Kontronik is pure plug and play and the gov works great. It also is quite efficient like all Kontronik products.

The C50 has a major issue with heating as the power level goes up. Also loading plays a big role in that. With 710mm blades I can fly it well, with 600mm blades it over-heats very bad. There are reasons for that and Sean at hacker told me straight out it is not really what we want.

In the smaller Razor we see a huge variety of power draw based on a persons flying. Clint can get 7 min on the same setup I fly for 4 min and we put the same amount of MAH back in the packs. Electric is unique in that power is on demand and you can use as much or as little as you like. Hover is only 100 watt per pound or less and then you go from there.

We spent a ton of time testing power setups and learned a ton of info. Not a lot of people have the time or $ to test that many motor/gear/ESC combo's so the factory team did that for people. We are quite confident in our recommended setups and will be happy to recommend setups, but people are welcome to experiment.

Depending on what a person wants and the flight performance it all comes down to power. Power is simple, voltage and current. More power = less flight time and more heat. Depending on power systems and flying style there are limitations to many motors. I know many people get very long flight times on the Trex600 but I also see very well know pilots fly them and get very short flight times :) A lot of it is subjective to flying style and use of the power. It takes a lot of power to do piro loops and not so much to do a loop, just how it works out.

Anyway, I did run the C50 but it did not work in our application :) I had more come apart than I care to remember in the ION. I don't want to ever deal with those issue again. Right now I can honestly say I fly the Razor and never work on it. It is the most trouble free heli I have ever owned. We did a lot of work to make it bullet proof, now I am working on a 710mm version that will be the same "plug and play" :glasses:

[wattybotts]

It is beautiful in Springfield, Missouri



What are you doing there Bert? hehe

Well, I flew every single set of packs I had today in the 38 degree weather here. Gotta love comin home!! Even in the cold, I am getting a 6 minute full 3d flight on my Razor with the Actro 24-4 and the Jazz on 3700 Flight Power packs. I am really liking this machine the more and more I fly it. I think Eric is right, and I can agree with him on this that the Razor is just plug and play. It is truley one of the most trouble free heli's I have ever owned. The performance is same, pack to pack, and it just simply stays together. At the end of the day, just bring it in and charge, no cleaning, no wrenching- just flying. That's what it's about.

Two of the local guys here flew the Razor today, and at the end of the day one of them was on the phone with Nathan from Rick's to preorder his kit. They mostly just hovered, and with my same setup, they got about a 7:30 to 8 min. flight (putting back 3000mah). :smokin: :D

[EricLarson]

Bobby, I bet you get 5 or less min with your flying?

Ya that Bert, taking a vacations in MO go figure :wink:

Glad you are on break Bobby, it is nice to have time off! I know how busy I was when I was in school.

[TomC]

Eric,

Thanks for your honest and informative assessment of the Hacker C50. So far this motor seems to be woking ok in my Trex600. Temps have been in the 140-150 deg f range after 7 minutes of sport/light 3D flying. This motor would typically get to 155-165 deg f in my Ion.

Seems strange that this motor would perform worse on a 600mm razor than a 690-710mm Ion. I guess there must be a technical reason, I just cannot imagine what it would be. Maybe I should move my neu 1521/1.5 from the Ion, put it on the Trex600, and move the c50 back to the Ion. Would this make any sense?

In the meantime, I'll monitor the c50 pretty carefully. I know the signs to look out for since I nuked one in my Ion earlier this year.

My hacker 77 escs seem to be working pretty good right now. The gov mode is terrible. I worked a little better on the 600 but still pretty bad. I found that the startup is better if you progam medium acceleration and hand spin the blades. Gives a pretty smooth 30 sec spoolup, with maybe one or two jerks sometime at the start.

Thanks again for your input.

Cheers,

Tom C

[buster1]

Eric - what motor is your personal favorite at this point and what batteries are you running with your setup,
If Bobby W. is really getting 6 mins. with his 24-4 and batts. - I am in for that setup.
Thanks,
Jeff

[EricLarson]

Well one other thing to be said for the Razor, damn is it strong.

I had a bit of an incident today and it hit the ground full tilt with a 12S setup. The head is striped clean and definitely needs rebuilt. The frames have 1 A frame ladder cracked, tail boom bent, mainshaft, skids, and tail fin. That is it.

From the crashes I have seen this looks pretty normal. The frames / main body just does not break.

[EricLarson]

If the C50 is working just use it. There is NO right or wrong. It sounds like it is happy in your application and that is great!. I did not get it to work for a variety of reasons and when we crunched the #'s based on power and loading it just was not a good choice for my application.

I would be surprised if Bobby gets 6 min. On 3700 with sport flying maybe 5-6 and 4350 mah = 7-8. If you fly it hard the times will be reduced significantly.

[buster1]

Eric - if I go to the 4350 MAH, how much weight will that add and will it slow down the quickness with the heli.
With the 24-4 and 4350 packs - hard flying - what do you estimate flight time to be - 5 minutes???
You didn't say which motor you were using - is it the Neu or Acro?? and what do you think of the 24-4 in the Razor.

I love all the info. you guys have provided from testing data - but you guys need to really break this information down for people that are not as proficient or knowledgeable as you - I have made the plunge to fly all electric and more guys are definitely coming - you can see its the future. But it stinks to not get the right setup from the beginning and then have to buy another one. We have many more options and decisions regarding setup in contrast to Nitro in my opinion. I hope MA displays this info. in a detailed manner on their website when the time comes.
Jeff

[wattybotts]

I rechecked my times today and about a 6 min flight is about right. My timer is set to 5 minutes, and after that I usually fly for another twenty or thirty seconds more until I do a few autos. Total, that is roughly 6 min. Now, it is colder here and I am warming my packs up on my car defroster before flying them. Batt temps in 38 degree weather got to 108 degrees, motor to 80 degrees, and ESC to room temp. This Actro setup is going to be great for a general sport flyer who also wants to do alittle bit of smack.

For an all out stick banger, I would not really recommend this setup- maybe try a Neu or Hacker. I have tailored my flying to bigger and smoother, as well as hard 3d with this setup, as opposed to all out tight, hardcore 3d in the box for a full 5 minutes. This is how I get alittle bit of a longer flight time.

[EricLarson]

Wow that is pretty good. I have never seen over 4.5-5 min max with any motor on the 3700's. It depends on flying a lot though.

My times are based on pure flying though. I do not count spool time and I end my time when I hit the auto switch. I only auto 1 time at the very end when my timer goes off. My time in the radio is set to 5 min total. That is based on my flying style and I do not "slack off" at all. I put about 80-85% back into the packs.

Thanks for the info Bobby.