View Full Version : EVO 20's, Differance between new and old formulation?
Willy J
10-14-2006, 04:53 PM
I just bought a new pair of Evo 20's from Atlanta Hobby for my ION and they came with the 'new formulation' labels and the Thunder Power type balance plugs on them. I needed 2 sets of these batteries and since Atlanta was out of stock on the 5s2p 5000mah's I ordered a second set right from the Duralite website. The second pair came with rainbow ribbon type balance plug on them and are (i'm guessing) the older formulation since it wasn't on the labels. My questions are is there much difference between the old and new formulation battery packs regarding power and duration? Also can I buy an adapter to balance the other set with my Thunder Power balancer or should I send them back and get the newer pack type? I also weighed them and there is a difference in weight between the old and new sets so I can't mix and match them on the same flight.
Thanks for any comments!
Bill W.
Personally, I would send the second set back and ask for the new formula ones. What ever you do I would not recommend mixing new and old formula packs. They have a slightly different discharge curve. The new formula ones have a slightly higher discharge voltage curve.
I have 8 sets of 5s1p 3700 Evo20 old fomula packs. I use them as 10s1p for lively acros/3D and 10s2p for FAI type flying and duration. I have 2 of the FP 2-6S stay-balance balancers and use them religiously. So far, after over 70 cycles, they are performing very well.
I'm getting ready to buy another set of Evo20's and see that they have different taps. The new taps are TP type and are meant to fit the new FP V-balancers. I really do not see why FP could not have just kept their original plug and included adapters with their new v-balancer? Adapters are available, but hard to get (as are the v-balancers as well).
This is all a bit annoying imop.
Cheers,
Tom C
Willy J
10-17-2006, 08:46 PM
Hey Tom Thanks for your input! When I ordered the batteries it stated they were the packs with the older balance taps right in the ad. I didn't notice it so I think I'm stuck with the set. They were also 15% off the normal price. They told me that the Evo 20 5s2p 5000's weren't even available in the new formulation at this time. Funny thing is I have a set of them already! I may just end up keeping them since I should of paid more attention to the 'fine print' when I ordered them, the packs were $40 off each one and I plan to use them for some AP flying and general aerobatic flying and not hard 3D. I can order up a balance adapter plug for $4.50 so I can use my existing balancer and not have to buy a new one. Thanks again for your input.
Bill W.
WillJames
10-18-2006, 07:56 PM
I'm getting ready to buy another set of Evo20's and see that they have different taps. The new taps are TP type and are meant to fit the new FP V-balancers. I really do not see why FP could not have just kept their original plug and included adapters with their new v-balancer? Adapters are available, but hard to get (as are the v-balancers as well).
Larger diameter wire was needed on the balancing taps than what you can get on the Rainbow Leads to charge at high rates using the V-Balancers.
Thanks Will, I guess that explains why. This is not going to help us with older rainbow taps if we go to a v-balancer and adapter though. I guess I'll just have to break down and buy 2 new v-balancers when I buy my next set of new formula lipos. At least the v-balancers cost a lot less than the stay-balance ones.
Cheers,
Tom C
Laddy
10-19-2006, 01:05 AM
I'm getting ready to buy another set of Evo20's and see that they have different taps. The new taps are TP type and are meant to fit the new FP V-balancers. I really do not see why FP could not have just kept their original plug and included adapters with their new v-balancer? Adapters are available, but hard to get (as are the v-balancers as well).
Larger diameter wire was needed on the balancing taps than what you can get on the Rainbow Leads to charge at high rates using the V-Balancers.
Will i have 2 new 3700 5s1p NF packs that have been setting for a few months waiting on my Razor. They have the ribbon cables on them. Will the handle the TP210 balancer (yes i have your made up leads from FP to TP balancers) while charging with the TP 1010?
Thanks
Laddy
WillJames
10-20-2006, 07:38 AM
The older style rainbow leads with adapters will work fine with the 1010/210V and also the FlightPower V-Balance Modules. The only thing is I would not go much over 1C if that with them. I will try to check with someone at FP who knows more than me what the upper limits on charge rate are witht he rainbow lead balancing taps.
The NF packs are just that New Formulation and a little more forgiving and better power output. There has also been a major change with how the individual cells are matched and balanced and paired to makeup the packs on the NF packs. The technique is a trade secret, but suffice to say that nobody else is using the same method that we are aware of. The net result of the NF cells and pack construction speaks for itself. :)
MrMel
10-30-2006, 04:09 AM
I have actually the opposite experience of the NF packs.
I have two old and two new formula of 10s1p packs, same with 6s1p packs.
My old formula is WAY better performance wise, Eagle tree logger confirms it, 300 more watt output from the old forumula.
Anyone else seen this?
stevehonn
10-30-2006, 03:16 PM
Although the cable on the rainbow balancer leads is a small section they are doubled up in the adapter for the V Balancer so are fine. When balance charging the majority of the charge current still goes through the main leads, the balancer part seems to be pretty similar to the old Staybalance unit but the V Balancer can shut off the charger. I charge my 6S 3700 pack which is NF but old style balance lead at 7A on the field with the V Balancer and my 6S 4900 pack, again with the old balance lead at 8A without any problems or anything getting remotely warm.
I have mixed a 4S 3700 old pack with a 2S 3700 NF pack to make a 6S for the Swift - not a good idea, although both packs took the same charge after use the old cells got much warmer than the NF cells and eventually one of the cells leaked. I'm sticking to factory made 6S packs now.
WillJames
10-31-2006, 07:06 AM
I have actually the opposite experience of the NF packs.
I have two old and two new formula of 10s1p packs, same with 6s1p packs.
My old formula is WAY better performance wise, Eagle tree logger confirms it, 300 more watt output from the old forumula.
Anyone else seen this?
I know a LOT of people who have seen the opposite of this, but I also know a few people who have had sets of packs that did extra well, I know Bobby Smith has had a set like that before.
Do you ahve a 1010/210V to see exactly what is goign on with the set of NF's that are not performing as well? How close are they voltage wise after a flight and before charging and also after charging?
MrMel
10-31-2006, 07:18 AM
They get warmer then the old formula (higher internal resistance?)
They produce less watts (according to eagletree on my L14), and you can hear the motor bogging while flying them.
The ones Ive tested I both bought both from UK (flightpower) and US (tppacks)
I have 10s1p 3700 NF and old formula
and I have 6s1p 3700 NF and old,
and I have 6s1p 4350 NF that is actually less power in then my old 6s1p 3700.
My old formula 6s1p 3700 have somewhere around 150 - 200+ cycles on them, and still is my preferred battery(!)
Ive mailed flightpower about it, and they have ignored the mail 3 times now.
(while answering promptly on other inquires)
"There is no smoke without fire" :roll:
stevehonn
10-31-2006, 08:22 AM
There was a changeover point when the NF packs started coming into Flightpower, during this time some packs were New Formulation but the packaging was the old style so you can have NF cells and not know it!
MrMel
10-31-2006, 08:31 AM
Still dont explain why some packs have have over 10% (feels like 20% or so while flying) more power then the other (the OF compared to the new ones)
+ my 6s1p are really old, so I dont think that is the case.
WillJames
10-31-2006, 10:01 AM
They get warmer then the old formula (higher internal resistance?) Nope
They produce less watts (according to eagletree on my L14), and you can hear the motor bogging while flying them. You never said what the voltages are on each cell both before nad after flying
I have 10s1p 3700 NF and old formula
and I have 6s1p 3700 NF and old,
and I have 6s1p 4350 NF that is actually less power in then my old 6s1p 3700. Maybe a bad pack? What are the voltages before and after flying?
My old formula 6s1p 3700 have somewhere around 150 - 200+ cycles on them, and still is my preferred battery(!) We are seeing a lot of people now wiht 250+ cycles on the packs and still going.
Ive mailed flightpower about it, and they have ignored the mail 3 times now.
(while answering promptly on other inquires) Who did you email?
Do you have a charger like the 1010/210V that can tell you the voltages of each cell both after charging and before flying and also after flying? If a NF pack cannot put out what an older formulation can that is lower MAH and also 150+ flights old, I would strongly suspect a weak cell in the pack. Without knowing your charger types and charge and balancing regimen, it is hard to speculate.
"There is no smoke without fire"
MrMel
10-31-2006, 10:42 AM
Yep, I have the 1010/210v combo, so I can check, however its a heck of a storm outside (raining like crazy, and they promised snow storm tonight/tomorrow) it might take a while :shock:
Bad packs? 6 of them? from the start? What is the odds?
I email "info@flightpower.co.uk" which translates to Jon Badley..
Have been no issues while charging (not much out of balance etc), but I check the voltage of each cell as soon as I can fly again.
MrMel
10-31-2006, 01:45 PM
Here is two recorded flights that I did a while back, first the Old battery, second New battery..
(I had a PCM lockout glitch around 4 min on the new battery)
http://www.dacsa.net/heli/eagle/l14-old2.jpg
http://www.dacsa.net/heli/eagle/l14-new1.jpg
There was a changeover point when the NF packs started coming into Flightpower, during this time some packs were New Formulation but the packaging was the old style so you can have NF cells and not know it!
I took a look at the actual cells, and each cell the old packs are about 5-7mm longer then the NF packs, so its clearly not the same cells.
MrMel
11-15-2006, 04:37 AM
Update:
Flightpower keeps ignoring my mails (sent to several different addresses now) :arggg:
And, I have some more flights, voltage under load is WAY different, (new formula = worse)
Look at these two logs, same Throttle setting, its a avg almost 100RPM difference between the two packs :shock:
(Did auto training with the NF battery, no fun flying 3D with it..)
My only guess now is that they couldnt keep up with the demand on 3700's and changed cells and lowered the quality... Ive ordered some Maxamps cheap cells, gonna compare those to the NF ones.
http://www.dacsa.net/heli/eagle/L14-Actro-17T-1.jpg
http://www.dacsa.net/heli/eagle/L14-Actro-17T-2.jpg
Next flight I gonna bump up the throttle on the NF packs, either it will kill them or it will show extreme drops in Voltage.
Cell voltage after charging is the same as my old packs, after discharge its lower then my old cells.
Imbalance of the cells are the same on both the new and old.
(I have one other pack with a bad cell, that one shows a huge (compared) imbalance directly after any discharge)
Mel,
Ranting and raving about how bad these packs are (in all forums) is not really going to help anyone imop. If you have a bad cell in your pack, like it sounds like you might have, send the pack(s) back to Flightpower for inspection. I had a similar problem with my evo20 7400 5s2p packs earlier this year and these were replaced, no problem.
Good luck, and Cheers,
Tom C
MrMel
11-16-2006, 11:20 AM
Yes, nice, if they would answer the mails about how to send them back.
And they finally did, yesterday, 2.5 months later, so I guess ranting about it helped
:shock:
WillJames
11-16-2006, 07:38 PM
I could have helped you with that Mel. I am the FP customer service manager in the USA and I could have helped if I had seen this! Sorry, are you taken care of now? If not I will get on it.
WillJames
11-16-2006, 09:14 PM
My only guess now is that they couldnt keep up with the demand on 3700's and changed cells and lowered the quality... Ive ordered some Maxamps cheap cells, gonna compare those to the NF ones.
Nothing like that has been done. The cells are better and better, second to none from what we are seeing. I wish you had emailed me, my address is on the FP site at the bottom of the page. We can get you taken care of no problem, sounds like you have a bad cell for sure, and we will replace them no problem. I can also assure you that FP has been having some issues with their hosting, but we are working on that, there is a very good chance they did not receive the email. I know everybody uses that excuse, but it is true.
WillJames
11-17-2006, 06:02 AM
Just got off the phone with Jon Badley at FlightPower Corporate Offices. Your issue is going to be resolved ASAP Mrmel. The best email to get Jon is jon.badley AT flightpower.co.uk
MrMel
11-17-2006, 07:30 AM
Thanks Will, I dropped him a mail.
MrMel
11-22-2006, 04:56 AM
KUDOS TO FLIGHTPOWER!
Flightpower contacted me, apperently they had have issues with their mailserver, thats why they havent gotten my mails, all has been sorted out now.
I asked for them to inspect the bad packs, but Flightpower customer support replaced them instead, free of charge.
Hats off for Flightpowers customer service and Thanks to you Will!
/Happy camper!
I love happy endings!
Cheers,
Tom C