New Logo 10ap & AP2000 question

[tcgliderguy]

To comment about something I read, up close to the front of this thread.... about Harbor Freight Zip Ties...... Check them out!

They probably sell all kinds of different stuff, all over the country, but the "bargain" zip ties that I bought from Harbor Freight are just about useless.
Bend one back on itself, and it will snap right off. It's almost like they are made from styrene... or something equally brittle. Definitely not the nylon that you would expect....

Check out where you are using them.... and hopefully something important... like your camera mount, or your camera won't fall off.....

-Taylor

[GGoodrum]

The last week, or so, I've been testing a new battery setup in my Logo 10. It is a 10s pack of the a123 M1 cells from a DeWalt 36V tool pack. These cells are a ton more "robust" than the eMolis (30C+ continuous / 50C burst vs 10C/15C...) and are a lot lighter. They do have a lower "nominal" voltage (3.0V vs 3.7V...), so you have to use more in series, but when you get the right setup, they work amazingly well. My 10s-2300 pack lasted a full 9 minutes in a "simulated" AP-styled flight regime (basic FF plus a few "pops" to check the power...).

Here's what it looks like in my Logo 10 Carbon:

http://www.tppacks.com/photos/a123-M1-10s-Logo10-01.JPG

http://www.tppacks.com/photos/a123-M1-10s-Logo10-02.JPG

http://www.tppacks.com/photos/a123-M1-10s-Logo10-03.JPG


As you can see, it fits fine, and it CGs perfectly. Normally, I would use an 8s-3700 FP Evo 20 setup in this. The motor is a Z30A-800 with a 21T pinion.

The other interesting trait with these cells is that they are completely safe. You can't overcharge or over discharge them and they can be charged in as little as five minutes, with the right charger setup. With a 10A charger, 15 minutes is more practical, but that's not bad. :)

Anyway, for those on a budget, this is a pretty good deal. If you time it right, you can pick up a 10-cell DeWalt pack on eBay for about $85-$95.

I'm still waiting on the new "A" versions of the Z-Power motors, which I hope will be in by early next week. As soon as I know they are on the way (it takes 3 days...), I'll order up some new Logo 10 and Logo 10 3D kits.

The Z30A-800 I have in mine runs amazingly cool. After the 9 minute flight Saturday, in ambients around 85F, in only got up to 108F. The "regular" Z30-800 ran about 140F in similar conditions. The same day we ran a regular Z50-600 in my e620SE, using a 12s-3300 Evo 20 setup, and it was at 141F after 7 minutes of pretty hard 3D. I suspect the Z50A-600 will run down around 120F for the same sort of flying. This bodes well for using this motor in our AP applications, as it will be able to handle the heavy weights and not run too hot.

We just started testing a 15s a123 M1 setup in the eRaptor and got very similar 3D performance to the 12s-3300 FP setup, both using the 111T main gear and a 12T pinion. For AP/AV duty, I will test a 10s2p a123 M1 setup, but with a 95T R90 main gear and a 12T pinion. Based on my Logo 10 tests, I think an AP-configured Raptor will work quite well using two of these 10s packs wired in parallel. We'll soon see.

-- Gary

[Tonystott]

Gary, are those DeWalt battery packs the XRP ones? I thought they were NiCds..

[GGoodrum]

Gary, are those DeWalt battery packs the XRP ones? I thought they were NiCds..

They are a special kind of Lithium Ion cell that uses nantechnology to ensure that all the Lithium gets transfered during the charging process. That's why you can't over charge them. You can read more about them here: http://www.a123systems.com/html/tech/overview.html

The first large-scale use of these new cells has been in the new DeWalt 36V tool packs, which have ten of these cells in each pack. Here's an example of one of the many ebay listings for these: http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Dewalt-DC9360-36-Volt-Battery-36V_W0QQitemZ110046890486QQihZ001QQcategoryZ20794Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You can get the cells directly from a123Systems, but they are $16.50 each. If you buy 100, that will drop to $11.50. The next price break is at 5000 cells and it is still $10. Like I said, if you time it right, you can get these as low as $85. I just got two last week at this price. You just have to stay out of bidding wars with your fellow RC'ers. :lol:

-- Gary

[askman]

these are dewalt 36v ones. I have 3-10S and 4-5S packs made up. for cost of 500 bucks (price of one raptor pack for thunderpower or flight power) and lipodapter, I set my self up pretty well. low cost, safe and good power at a slight time or weight penalty. I can live with that.

[Cryofix]

Askman, Gary,

What ESC and motors are you guys running with the A123 cells?

Gary,

Will your package be able to use the A123 cells?

[GGoodrum]

I'm using a Phx HV-45 controller with a Z30A-800, a 21T pinion and a 10s a123 pack. As soon as I can get the motors, I will offer power packages for existing Logos and complete kit packages, including an Askman mount.

-- Gary

[Nitrospazzz]

Gary, I forgot to ask you in my e-mail but how many battery packs would you recommend if using these new dewalt packs? Since they charge in 15 minutes is 3 or 4 packs a good number? I know with the "regular" lipos you need 4 or so packs if you want to fly continuous or nearly continuous. Since these packs are very cheap in comparison I could see having 4-6 for what would be the same price as one FP lipo

[GGoodrum]

I think you could probably fly pretty close to continuous with 3 sets of these and two chargers, assuming a 15 minute charge time. It takes less than a minute to swap packs and with 7 minute flights, you'd fly the first pack, then swap in the second and throw the 1st one on charger #1. After flying the 2nd pack, you swap it for the 3rd one and put the 2nd pack on the 2nd charger. After the 3rd pack is used, the 1st pack has finished charging so you can swap the two and fly the 1st pack again and have the 3rd one on the 1st charger. After the 2nd flight of the 1st pack, the 2nd pack is done charging so the 1st pack can go on the 2nd charger and you do the 2nd flight of the 2nd pack. After it is done the 3rd pack is done off the 1st charger, and so on. This is easier to visualize if you draw a series of square wave timing-type plots. :)

[Nitrospazzz]

lol thanks for the step by step Gary

7 minute flights aren't too bad either for a cheap battery pack like this, especially with the short charge times. My last job we flew 10-15 flights most around 5 minutes. I think the longest one was about 10 minutes and it was longer because I was enjoying flying it once we were done for the day.

Ah I've wanted to go e-power since the first time seeing DJ's prototype photos.


On a side note what chargers are you using? My current only goes up to 3 cell so I would need to upgrade that

[rerazor]

Gary,

Could you re-word that in layman's terms please :twisted:

[GGoodrum]

Gary,

Could you re-word that in layman's terms please :twisted:

Seems pretty clear to me... :shock:

[...who's on first?? ...] :D:D

[askman]

if you can pick up astro flight 112 charger for cheap, you can run lipodapter with it at full 8 amps. (assuming you have good power supply) TME extrema has A123 setting, but it is only good for 4-4.5amp at 10S. (depending on howyou set it up)
orbit or other high end charger will work either by slightly overcharging or using lipodapter.

now, 8amp will give you about 15-20min recharge. at 12volt, this translates to about 25amps. to run 2, you need 50amps. at this point, you may also consider getting a cheap generator with a powersupply or dual deep cycle car battery. 2000watt generator will run this and a small refridgerator for your soda. :)

[Nitrospazzz]

now, 8amp will give you about 15-20min recharge. at 12volt, this translates to about 25amps. to run 2, you need 50amps. at this point, you may also consider getting a cheap generator with a powersupply or dual deep cycle car battery. 2000watt generator will run this and a small refridgerator for your soda. :)

That would be a nice little mobile ground station :)

Thanks for the charger info, I'll see what I can find and decide if I am going to make the switch to e-power. The bergen just seems like such an overkill for all the work I do but I love the way it flies so its a tough call.

[MarkWebber]

The bergen just seems like such an overkill for all the work I do but I love the way it flies so its a tough call.

Watch for the E-Bergen that Greg Alderman just got flying.

[Nitrospazzz]

Watch for the E-Bergen that Greg Alderman just got flying.

That is a cool ship and would love to see it fly. But really I don't need something this/that large for the shots I do. Highest I've gone is about 200ft and I've done higher than that with my raptor 30. Even though I am a big fan of the flight times the gasser gives me. Its a hard decision, both have their advantages.

[lakespinner2]

I've finally gotten the video downlink up and running on the Logo 10. I took it out today and it seems to work well. I had some buddies check it out while I was flying, I still don't have the confidence to look away from the heli to peek at the LCD screen.

I don't have the skill, or setup, or both :wink: to make the thing sit relatively still with the ap2000 turned on. I tried a few times today to calibrate the ap2000 at a much lower altitude. I'm not sure it worked any better. It's definitely holding the heli upright, but it 'really' sails off in some random direction after I've turned up the gain and let go of the right stick. I tried to give it a few clicks of trim but I ran out of trim before it arrested the drift. And by the time I've slowed it down it's drifted half the length of the runway and still going. I'm sure it's not the ap2000 because it does hold the attitude as it drifts, it's just a tilted attitude.

I'm wondering if some stiffness in the head could be causing this. This flybar carrier mechanism is considerably stiffer than any other heli I have but I've never had one with plastic bushings. This is the Logo 10 Deluxe version with some plastic bushings in the flybar carrier. I've received the upgrade bearings to replace the bushings but I haven't swapped them out yet.

The drift I'm seeing seems to be in random directions, even with little or no wind if that might be a clue. I'm not sure but I think the trim is changing slightly during a flight even with the ap2000 turned off (gain all the way off) but it's pretty hard to tell since the last few days have been pretty windy. The trim is close enough that I don't pay any attention to it flying it normally but perhaps it's showing up more with the ap2000 engaged.

Or, is calibrating this thing a skill that has to be learned with hours of practice, like a piroflip ? Any way to practice the flat calibrating hover in G3 ? :D

I don't mind the testing and tuning, it gives me a chance to learn the camera a little better. None of the shots today were all that great, I just let it snap away while I was cal'ing and trimiming. They were all a little soft, I'll have to bump the shutter up a little when doing the cal and trim routine.

[AZ ChopperCam]

crank up yoru trim step on your ail/elev in your TX ALOT. My Futaba 9C is cranked up to like 23. This way 2 or 3 clicks does a huge amount of trim and makes flying with an AP super easy.

Also verify that your FMA sensor is tilted just slightly to the left (if viewing from behind) to counter the right bank tendancy in hover. This and a little bit of practice and you'll be an AP2000i pro in no time.

[lakespinner2]

Thanks DJ, now I remember you mentioning that trim trick a few months ago but I'd forgotten. I'll try that next, maybe later today. I also didn't do the slight sensor tilt to the left, I was hoping the cal would take care of it. I'll add a little tilt to help it out too. thanks again.