Vibe head setup,

[vladimirg]

Most people told me about flip the blade-grips from manual setups.
please tell me? what's difference in fly in this configuration ? if you have photo for this setups please show me


Sorry my English
Vladimir

[Ghostrider]

Check out Bob Finless. He has pictured and basic instructions in his personal gallery on how to do the flip.

[Finless]

I HIGHLY reccomend doing the grip flip! The flip idea was done my Curtis himslef and boththe JR pilots I fly with have done it! I did it from the get go and this is what made me buy the heli.

Bob

[ErichF]

What is the explanation for doing it in the first place?

The pics I saw of the mod show the bell mixers staying in the same position. So, you're going from negative (non-correcting) to positive (correcting) delta. Since positive delta is desired for 3D flying, was that the main reason for doing the mod? Or, was there another reason (woof n poof)?

Erich

[Kinger]

Erich - I believe the reason most folks do the mod is to get more collective "pop" out of the Vibe during 3D.

[ErichF]

That's interesting...since I don't see how the mod helps that.

When collective is applied, the spindle is loaded. The loaded spindle compresses the dampers. The effect of a positive G loading causes the spindle to rise to the top of the head block, bringing the grips up with it. The pitch links, being attached to the head block via the mixers, tend to pull down on the pitch arms as the spindle and grips rise. With the pitch arms on the front of the grip, this actually subtracts from the positive collective input. The effect is the same inverted with negative loadings.

It was my impression that the collective pop everyone talks about was the result of damper compression resulting in a pitch increase at the grip. This requires the pitch arms be behind the grip, with an underslung flybar arrangement.

I could see this mod actually stabilizing the collective response during high loads, giving a more linear feeling to the collective.

Erich

[Kinger]

Maybe it's just a "by the seat of the pants" feel type thing? Hopefully, I'll know more once I get my machine up and running.

[Finless]

I noticed the difference right off... The head felt faster but the trade of was a little more sensitive (more pitchy) in forward flight, etc... However WELL worth doing in my opinion.

Bob

[vladimirg]

it's correct modification ?
You have Another Photo?

[Kinger]

That's a great picture of the flipped grips. Interesting that Curtis uses such a large spacer to decrease the angle of the links from the grip to the mixing arm. I wonder if he does that to reduce the chance of a link popping off or for some other benefit? Maybe the metal blade grips have a shorter post than the plastic versions? In the build of my machine last night, I flipped my grips but I did not use any spacer on the grip itself so the angle on the link is pretty severe.

Would be nice if some company out there created a heavy duty flybar cage like the one Curtis has on his machine. That's the one area of the stock machine that seems cheap and weak IMHO.

[ErichF]

The spacer is used to set the proper Delta offest. The longer the spacer, the more affect the delta has.

Here's a pic of my SSZ-III head on my contest bird:

http://www.helifreak.com/album_showpage.php?pic_id=9316

With the teetering head design, I have to use much longer spacers in order to get the appropriate delta affect.

Erich

PS, why is it such a PIA to attach a pic from my gallery on this forum, to a message I post in this forum?

[Kinger]

Thanks for the explanation Erich.

So I wonder if those spacers Curtis is using are able to be used on the plastic grips and are available or if they are a custom piece he had machined?

[ErichF]

I would be cautious about extending plastic arms with spacers. Wayne Mann told me once that the main reason for justifying metal grips in the first place is to eliminate twisting of the pitch arm and grip. Putting a longer arm increases that twisting moment, and plastic may just twist more than any Delta effect would enhance.

Now, as short as those spacers are, it may be feasable. I know they wouldn't on my Hirobo head. I used 20mm Fury frame spacers. They are already drilled and tapped for 2.5mm I cut the head off one 2.5M SHC bolt, use it to join the spacer to the pitch arm. Then I used the stock 2.5mm ball end on the spacer.

Erich

[vladimirg]

Chen Zarfati use flip grips? or fly on standard system ?

[Kinger]

The pictures I have seen of Chen's machine indicate that he flys with the grips flipped. Same with Lukas Rivas.

[Finless]

Erich is correct it is for getting the delta better than leaving it at a large angle.

I did mine like Curtis' original mod but as you can see the angle is still a lot. I think going much farther is a risk to the plastic grips and pulling out the ball...
Vlad seems to have a better solution with the custom metal parts!

Bob

http://www.helifreak.com/album_mod/upload/706f9b5abdffb00e8d9f5f5902af5e69.jpg

[ErichF]

As you can see in Bob's picture, there is zero Delta. The pitch arm ball is on center with the flybar carrier. This makes the head neutrally stable in hover and forward flight (doesn't help or upset). Downside is that the head will tend to pitch up during fast forward flight. With 3D flying, this is not really an issue, just takes a little getting used to.

[vladimirg]

As you can see in Bob's picture, there is zero Delta. .
I understand this.

Whats difference in fly on standard grips and flip like Bob. Delta equal, not change any timings. Whats do this flip grip head better?

[ErichF]

It really boils down to how it feels to YOU. I would venture to say that 1/3rd of the equation has to do with the blades you chose, 1/3rd flybar ratio and weight, and 1/3rd the flip mod itself. Too many variables to nail it down to one single thing that makes it feel better or worse for everyone. Just as no two helicopters fly the same, even though they are mechanically the same. Ask any FAI pilot about his backup machine. Some would say their backup flies best!.

Some have said the little mod I did on my Evo head didn't do a darn thing for them. Either they have different feel, or are looking for something else. I know it worked for me, your mileage may vary.

Try the mod, if you don't like it, it's easily reversed. If done properly, the mod is perfectly safe to try once or twice. It sure is cheaper than buying a bunch of different blades to try.

Erich

[Ghostrider]

OK,

I just built my Vibe a couple of weeks ago. My flying is moderate 3D. Is this something that I (with my flying level) will notice or even like? To do this mod correctly, you need some modification... I don't really want to do it unless you guys really think it is worthwile.

Another queston: There is an option to run a low flybar (ratio .7:1) or high flybar (ration 1:1). What does this do / change and which one do you guys recommend?




Would be nice if some company out there created a heavy duty flybar cage like the one Curtis has on his machine. That's the one area of the stock machine that seems cheap and weak IMHO.

Kinger, this is the flybar cage that Bob has and that I ordered.
http://www.advantagehobby.com/product.php?productid=49970&cat=0&page=1

[vladimirg]

please tell me correct number for metall grips

[Kinger]

Erich is right on the money. It's a VERY simple modification to do and takes no more than a couple of minutes to set up on the bench. If you fly it with the flipped grips and it works for you then great, if it doesn't you just flip them back. No problems no hassles. I just flipped mine from the get go considering most of the hot dog 3D guys flying the Vibe seem to have the grips set this way. Rest assured, I'll try both though to see what feels best to me as I don't 3D nearly as hard as these guys.

I'll hand the soap box back to somebody who knows more about flybar ratios to answer your question Ghostrider. Personally, I'm going to start my machine with the lower ratio.

As for that link to the KSJ unit.......funny you brought that up. I was originally going to purchase that, but lo and behold you pretty much can't it ANYWHERE. When I called Advantage a couple weeks back to order one they mentioned there were 4 other people in a backorder line for the unit and it would probably be a couple of weeks before I'd see it. I chose not to get on the backorder list at that point. After seeing the stock flybar arms up close and personal last night, I changed my mind and called Advantage today to be put on the backorder list. That's when I was told that KSJ is supposedly working on revising this item to allow it to better work with the Vibe head. Now does that mean it's going to be more heavy duty like the Curtis unit? No clue, but that could explain why they have been so hard to obtain lately. Hopefully they get it done soon because I know I want one pretty badly.

As for the metal grips, I'm not sure of a part number. The person who builds Curtis' machines said somewhere on another site that they are not made for the Vibe, but were actually from the Ergo.

[Ghostrider]

Kinger,

I received the flybar cage. It does not fit with the stock mixing arm socket head bolt. It needs to be a cap head bolt as pictured above in Finles' photo and i'm not sure what size to order. Bob, do you know what size to order?

I heard some people grind the head down but I would rather find a cap head.

[Kinger]

Just look in the manual for the size of the original socket head. Then find a cap head the same length and width. If it's too long, then out comes MR. Handy Dremmel :)

So did you get the flybar cage from Advantage? Must have got one before they sold out. Lucky dog.

[Kinger]

According to the manual, that's a 3X15 bolt.