Heavy lifters???

[DKTek]

OK. I hear from time to time about several company's getting ready to release a heavy lift heli. Problem is I can't find them on the net. Vario and ASI are a few that have been mentioned but I find nothing substantial. I'm looking for links to ANY of these machines that will tell the typical info, i.e- payload limits, flight duration with given tank, maybe some lifting videos.

I post this here assuming that they are Turbine powered. Yes, I've seen the gas camera helis and some UAV industrial helis but those are specific. I guess something more like the Vario SPH5 Aircrane with the seven bladed head but I doubt that is structural enough to throw into a steep turn at max gross weight....whatever that may be. Aerobatics aren't the point but gentle maneuvers just don't cut it either. Thanks for any heavy lifter info people.

[cbergen]

http://www.augustoheli.com/videostuff/videoarchive/HelifreakArchive/I/IndustrialTurbinetestflightsshort10-2005.wmv

[DKTek]

Thanks Chris, just the kind of thing I'm looking to see.

Wow, you seem to choose the 810's over the MAH880 industrial blades. That is interesting considering the price difference and purpose. Is it that they are more rigid? I'm considering the MAH1300 for the XLV but I'm still doing my homework. Any body have experience with the 1300's and what are you running them on?

Heavy lifters are very interesting to me. Just not enough info available. Thanks for any and all replies.

[cbergen]

The V-Blades 810's were chosen in that particular application on that helicopter due to the weight (actually the lack of it ....).

The MAH 890 heavy lift blades needed more weight on them to "fly" properly. Kind of like putting too big of a wing on a planker.

The V-Blades 810 can pick up a remarkeable amount of weight, as long as you have the power to keep them spinning.

I am led to believe the MAH 890's can pick up somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-90 lbs, again as long as you have the power to keep them spinning.

[heliman53]

We have flown our"A" model machine with an all up weight of 72 lbs using MAH 850 symet blades, this was done at 1650 rpms on our "B" model which is a little larger we have flown similar weights with MAH 950 symet and SAB 950 S curve blades the SABs are a little on the flexable side for my liking at that kind of weight btw the 950s we run at 1300-1500 rpms. Craig B

[DKTek]

Hmmm, I guess the 1300's are more for the Rmax or similar.

I am led to believe the MAH 890's can pick up somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-90 lbs, again as long as you have the power to keep them spinning.
_________________
Chris D. Bergen
Bergen R/C Helicopters

I'm thinking the Jet Cat SPH5 or two. Would that do it?

[heliman53]

DKTek, we looked at building a machine using two SPHT5s and Jet cat said they allready have the software to do that also they said the twin would be more powerful and more efficent than one larger turbine. As far as using the 1300s on a yamaha, it has a wider cord and also has an extended cord at the root for cooling. Craig B

[DKTek]

Dang Craig B., are any of the Rmax components available any more? I'll take a complete rotor system ( Swash up) if so. I'm very interested in putting two SPH5's to that system with a lighter airframe. That'd be the ultimate heavy lift platform for whatever.. :lol:

So, did you guys build it or are you just teasing me?

BTW- I'm a new XLV owner!!! :glasses2: 1st Jet Cat SPH5 to come very soon!!! :mrgreen:

[heliman53]

no, it kind of got stuck on a back burner but may get built yet I hope so I really wanted to get going on it. We will probably build the large gasser first something in the 11 to 12 foot rotor span range, stay tuned though as I am pushing for the heavy fuel version. Craig B

[Sara]

There's no problem in doing a twin installation with two Wrens, either. We have many customers running twin turbines on a jet, and plenty of experience with running multiple engines - we had 8 Wrens running together on a B52 for six months in 2004.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[heliman53]

Sara, I guess you allready have the software worked out then, I guess I will have to push for two Wrens instead of brand x I like the Wren better anyway. Craig B

[chopper jockey]

if you fit two turbines in a helicopter, you are almost certainly going to need a first rate governor system on each. Flying on two throttle curves will not be a good enough option.

[heliman53]

Chopper Jockey, as our flight control system needs governed rotor speed anyway that will be how we would do it, good call. Craig B

[DKTek]

if you fit two turbines in a helicopter, you are almost certainly going to need a first rate governor system on each. Flying on two throttle curves will not be a good enough option.

Sounds like they will do it with software. Do they use only one ECU or make them talk to each other? What would a first rate governor('s) be and how'd it work with twin turbines?

Nothin against Wren, I have a lot of respect and admiration from reading Sara's replies to posts. She's up there next to Joe Howard when it comes to product support in my book. I'm simply after the power ratings of the SPH5. I wouldn't hesitate getting a Wren for a different project. I'm waiting for the little two stage MW44 Gold for my Xcell 60 Graphite, if it'll work with 12yr old heli. BTW Sara, any news on it's development?

[Sara]

Hi DKTek,

The little one - MW44 helicopter engine - is coming along nicely, thank you! At this very moment, Roger is working on the tooling for the second stage castings, which are the most important new parts. We already have the core engine, we know what we want to do with the gearbox, but no further progress can be made until we have a cast second stage like the one on the MW54. It will be at least a couple of months before the entire process is complete (tooling, waxing, casting, machining) and then we need time to put everything together, but we are definitely getting on with it.

One line in your post puzzles me " I'm simply after the power ratings of the SPH". The Wren is more powerful and appears to be more reliable than the SPH. The two people we know who have flown both confirm that ours has more power.
It is difficult for us to get a lot of information from our competitors, but we DO know about two-stage engines and how they work (we've been working with these engines since 1998). The Wren MW54 core engine is physically larger than the P60 used by JetCat - Wren uses a 55mm turbine wheel, JetCat's is 52mm. They have to run their engine faster - 175,000rpm rather than our 160,000 - and from the little I've seen on the net about it, they do actually run heli engines up at this rpm, whereas for most people with a Wren 140,000 is the maximum ever needed because the Wren produces more power than is required for helicopters (the full 160K is used by the turboprops).
The JetCats appear to run hotter than the Wrens, too - all their two-stage engines that we've seen (turboprop and helicopter) have blackened exhausts, which is a sign of excess heat. Wren exhausts usually go golden-brown but not black.

However, it's difficult for us to find out much more than this because the SPH appears to be a rarity. Chopper Jockey's friend Peter Rob has one or two of them in the UK, Peter Wales has one in the US, a guy in Melbourne Australia posted about his on "the other site" some months ago and I also saw something there more recently from another US guy with a SPH. Contrast that with the 30 pictures on our website sent in by happy heli customers ... and that is by no means all of them. I accept that not everyone goes online but you will find it much easier to find posts on forums from people with Wrens than with SPH's. Most of the JetCat customers have the single stage PHT engines.

Please don't take this as "knocking the competitors" - I'm not. It's just that potential customers need to be aware that there is no official body which scrutinises turbine thrust/fuel efficiency/power claims so it is possible for manufacturers to claim anything they want. Wren's policy is never to claim anything that isn't backed up by independent tests (magazines, the Gas Turbine Builders Association) but we think some of our competitors use figures as a marketing tool - and, interestingly, they seem unwilling to subject engines to independent tests. It's not just one turbine manufacturer - there are a number of them whose website figures don't "add up" when compared with known data produced by the GTBA.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[v22chap]

And to add to what Sara put so well ,, if you want to see a Wren 2 stage do what it can do ,,take a look at this video of the Bergen turbine doing 3-D , not to many vids out there of the other products doing 3-D ,,,and this bird Greg has been beating on it all yr long ,,, if it can take this beating all yr ,,think what it will do for just heavy lift duty and if it has this type of power ,,,what will two of them do for heavy lift projects ,,,enjoy the vid.
http://video.helifreak.com/?subpath=OCBobs06&filename=TurbineGreg.wmv

[Peter Wales]

Let's present the other side of the coin here. The Wren should be more powerful, its bigger! Its also heavier and uses more fuel, which exactly what you would expect. I dont suppose there is much in it and there isn't much difference in power, both have more than enough for most folks.

I have 3 SPH5's and a Wren, so I can compare the two, but I dont have much time on either and certainly am not into the wild aerobatics both are capable of. The SPH5 is set at 169,000 rpm not because it needs to get there to make the power, but because it has a headspeed governor on it and if it does need a lot of power to keep the headspeed constant, thats the maximum it would be allowed to go to. During normal flight, it doesn't get anywhere near that.

The biggest problem with the SPH5 has been the lack of supply early on and consequently there aren't many pod and boom airframes available for it. Vario has gone with the SPH5 and has produced several scale fuses for it, and multiblade heads do need a constant headspeed to fly nicely. A good endorsement for the product. The latest version of the SPH5 ECU allows 3 headspeeds to be selected while in flight from the idle up switch.

The SPH5 is available now and I would say that the service in the US is comparable to the service from Wren in the UK, both companies look after their customers.

Which is better. Well I would say JR and Ford, but you may have a different opinion :cool:

[Sara]

Thanks, Peter. I'm really pleased that someone has been able to come on and give some information about the SPH because, as I said, there didn't seem to be a lot out there.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[DKTek]

Thank you guys for your opinions.

Sara, I'm aware of the different means of the Marketing Peeps which is why I haven't purchased the turbine yet. With such a large price, I really want to get my homework in.

Peter, any chance you would be interested in doing the initial inspection of my XLV build after it's complete? This is my first big machine and I'd feel a lot better with your oppinions, as a master builder of large scale, prior to it's maiden flight. :noteworthy Beside full scale flying, I've only flown 60 class machines from MinAir.

DK

[DKTek]

Hmmm, a pipe dream would be an Industrial Two Stage. Imagine this;

Wren uses the XL200 and Jet Cat uses the P200, both with second stage gearboxes built for INDUSTRIAL use.

I'd pay the price. Especially if one of the big manufactures see's the void that Japan imposed on Yamaha's Rmax Industrial heli. They owned that market but now try getting one. Good luck. That machine was designed by Hirobo for Yamaha and is probably locked out for a while but what if the other big company's decided to fill the Industrial void. Bergen and a few other awsome people have their versions, just not the caliber of the Rmax. Even though they seem to have a better USEFUL load over the Rmax. It's MTOW is about 200 pounds.

Marry a big two stage with one of these and you could sling load the kitchen sink along with the couch! :shock:

[cbergen]

Just because you don't see it on a website or an information forum, doesn't necessarily mean it can't or won't be done, or doesn't already exist....... :cool: :cool:

What exactly is it you're trying to lift?

[heliman53]

May be closer than you think.Craig B

[Peter Wales]

Peter, any chance you would be interested in doing the initial inspection of my XLV build after it's complete? This is my first big machine and I'd feel a lot better with your oppinions, as a master builder of large scale, prior to it's maiden flight. :noteworthy Beside full scale flying, I've only flown 60 class machines from MinAir.

DK

I'd be happy to check it out for you, let me know when its ready for liftoff

[Sara]

Pipe Dream:
Wren uses the XL200 with second stage gearboxes built for INDUSTRIAL use.

Hmmm, yes - another good idea. Problem is, there are TOO many of them! Schedule at the moment is:

Move to new factory
Get the XL200 into production
Get the 44 helicopter into production
Get the 44 Turboprop into production
Also increase production to meet demand for all the other engines and do something about a helicopter governor (yes guys, I heard you!)

Anyone know where we can get a 36 hour day and a 10-day week?

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[cbergen]

In the meantime, we'll continue to use all the Heli turbines you can send our way!!

:cool: :cool: :cool: