Question For all Nitro flyers?

[outofphase]

I currently fly a 400 size heli, electric of coarse, and was wondering about 600-700 size helis electric vs. nitro. When i get to the point that i start building a bigger heli, Im not sure which direction to go. Im sure there are benefits to going either way but I just love the idea of a nitro heli. Just so much more going on and I'm sure much better power and flight times.So the inevitable question, which way to go? Id love to hear everyones input on this dilemma. Maintaining nitro engines or buy expensive batteries? Pro, Cons anything? Thanks for the input. I really want to get good with my 400 before jumping into this class.

[smccrory]

I really want to get good with my 400 before jumping into this class.

That's your best wisdom, right there. Take it from me (who just went through another piston ring and has to start the break-in process again) - the bigger nitro birds will test your patience and increase your time at the bench. Sure, they're a total hoot to fly when they're running well, but there are a lot more pieces you have to get right.

Have you thought about a 500 or 550 class electric? They're bigger and more stable yet don't massively increase your flight costs and hassles.

[outhouse]

I waited 2 years to fly nitro, glad i did.

first nitro is slower then electric but flight times are longer.

I have both and like both, it depends on you and how you fly not on our personal opinion

[kovar]

I sold all of my electric birds just to fly Nitro and have no desire to go back. Its nice to fly one, slam some more fuel in it and be back up in less than a few minutes (if I want to fly that right after a tank). There is no Lipo's to jack with charge up, worry about them going bad... blah blah blah...


Plus I am an old school nitro plank pilot, so I have a fondness for nitro engines...

[outofphase]

Appreciate the feed back...

What are the common issues you tend to deal with when it comes to nitros?

[davidz58]

I love my 600 and 700. Don't really fly the 450 pro anymore since.

HOWEVER, electronic issues been bugging me this year on the 600 and 700.

Total repair costs for this year so far is $1700 combined on both birds. Total of 4 accidents I think. 1 engine failure, 2 crashes on 600, 1 crash on 700. Costing me $500 to fix my 700 (in progress of fixing).

My 450 crash costs is usually less than $75.

[mikmerl]

Don’t think that a small electric helicopter is a natural first choice and then you progress to a larger machine (either glow or electric). Regardless of the size of helicopter we fly we should always exercise a great amount of caution, don’t be misled into believing a small helicopter cannot cause serious bodily harm.
It’s not that many years ago that electric helicopters were almost nonexistent. I learnt on a 60 size glow and have helped many friends who started out even on 90 size “wet fuel” helicopters very successfully.
Today’s electrics have a phenomenal performance envelope so it is now mostly a choice of convenience and preference which to fly.
Personally having owned and flown from micro indoor to large scale gassers, the large machines fly beautifully.
My advice is that you buy the best equipment that you can afford your learning curve will be that much quicker and qualitative.

[smccrory]

What are the common issues you tend to deal with when it comes to nitros?

I love flying nitro but you're asking for honest answers so here goes:


Cost of fuel - most tend to spend a grand or two per year. That's a lot of batteries.
Cost of crashes - bigger birds = higher parts costs and engines can get hurt in a crash too. I busted off a muffler with one and had to replace the crankcase.
Break-in and tuning can be a pain
Periodic bearing and ring replacements
Avoidance of hot starts, over-leaning, over-reving and staying in the peak power band
Collective management - nitro's don't have the torque that electrics do
It's messier
It's noisier and there are fewer places to fly them

Augmenting what mikmerl mentioned, get the best equipment you can afford to build, fly and repair. I'm also discovering that few models is better if you want to fly a lot and advance quickly. The more models you own, the more time you'll spend at the bench.

[abit late]

There are lots of threads on electric vs nitro and the differences between the two are pretty clear. I'm a fan of both electric and nitro. Given that you love the idea of a nitro heli I think you should go for nitro, especially since you already have an electric. IMO the smoke, noise, smell and character of a nitro really does enhance the experience. I went from my first heli, a Blade 400, to a Trex 700. That was 18 months ago and its been great. A steep learning curve but if you're methodical and patient then I think there's a good chance you'll enjoy it, and most importantly be safe.

Here are a few tips that will help you if you take this road:

- Don't rush the build

- Make sure that you clean threads and fasteners and use loctite where its needed. Torque each bolt properly - not too much, not too little. Despite regularly working on bikes, I found that being used to working on my B400 initially caused me to undertorque some of the the bolts on the 700.

- Check every visible nut & bolt, especially in the head and tail, at least visually, before and after every flying session.

- Make sure that you have a clear starting and shut down procedure. Take your time when refueling, starting the engine or stopping the blades & engine, until its second nature. Know your throttle hold switch very well.

I still regularly fly my B400 and have recently added a Trex 600ESP to the fleet but the Trex 700 is the most fun by a long shot!

HTH
al

[scnsaracer]

The debate between electric and nitro goes on and on. To me cost is not the deciding factor. Someone earlier said nitro guys spend thoasands on fuel per year. Fuel is 22.00 for a gallon of 30% nitro. 2000.00 is 100 gallons. You will get 10 - 12 flights per gallon so you can do your own math but I wish I could fly that much. The nice thing about nitro is that it is sort of a pay a you go type of thing. Where as with electric you pay for all your fuel at once.

Curtis youngblood recently remarked ,on his blog, that he prefered nitro for practice, for simplicity, and electric for competition- due to the power. I agree, with my nitro bird I don't have to carry chargers or power supplies/generators. All I need is my starter and fuel and I can fly all day long until I run out of fuel. Don't let people scare you away from nitro engines - yonce they are tuned properly they really are quite simple. This does take some experience but anyone can do it.

Don't get me wrong I fly electric too but if you want to fly alot and really learn it's hard to beat a 50 size nitro bird for economy and reliability.

[outofphase]

Thanks for all the great info. I think inevitably it will come down to cost, but if i build it slowly cost shouldn't be a problem. Thanks agian

[newhelliguy]

smacktalkrc has a new video on large electric helis and a lot of advice.

[outofphase]

Ya i have seen that site, just haven't had a chance to download them yet.

[scnsaracer]

I was just looking at batts for a Trex 700e as an example of what I was saying earlier. Personally, I like to have 4 sets of batts so that i can fly and charge and not be waiting around for things to charge. So no matter what electric bird you fly you will need 4 sets of batts if you are going to get in some good flight reps. As you stated that cost is a concern, this has merit for you becuase with a nitro bird, you pay as you go. In addition, you don't need some sort of field charging rig. Now, a moden electric bird like a trex 700e on 12s or a trex 600 on 10s is unbelievably powerful but most of us really don't need that much power to learn on. Anyway, just food for thought based on my own experience.

Scott

[Rob_acdgsdetc]

I'm not sure if this applies, but I'd like to throw in my 2 cents. I'm planning my next heli and one of the factors that I'm considering is the fact that my "mentor" friend who is an awesome pilot and has been helping me along flys a TREX 700 nitro.

So I'm thinking why not go with something that HE knows all about and can help me with quite accuratly. I've only been flying 5 months, but I'm confident enough and flying well enough to not crash the thing. I flew his and it's easier to fly than my HBFP and 400.

Another thing is, on RealFlight, alot of my practice is done on fuel helis and not electric. Don't know if that makes a difference...

Oh, and I am thinking more and more everyday that a nitro heli is a whole hell of alot less hassle than electric... Why not fill it up and fly instead of worrying about 80% this and balancing that yadda yadda...

Ok that was more like a nickel... sorry

Rob

[CTG1129]

When i got my first nitro(600) i purchased everything new except the motor.Got it used from a local and put a new ring in it and began the learning curve for nitro helis,keep in mind I can tune a traxxas or losi like nobody's business but the helis were new to me so i took my time.learned the sounds and feel,Did a TON of research.

Now after 2 years I'm on my 2nd engine on the 600,It has about 12 gallons through it.did replace the ring in the 2nd motor.And about 9 months and 6 gallons on the 700.

I love my nitros,The sound,The smell.It is rather intimidating at times,especially in the early morning with a light breeze and the smoke will fill the ground.

The electrics do have more power and are a blast to fly.but no waiting with my nitro helis.

[cbcelectech]

All very good points.

I started on a Raptor 30 back in the day when there was no real electric option. I think I am better for it because the 30/50 size nitro is IMO the best bang for the buck as far as stability and ease of maintenance goes.

I had a few minor crashes, never a re-kit in all those years learning. Now that I have owned everything from a MSR to a 700N, and have learned the difference in flying them versus 600+ size nitro, I have settled in on what my bread and butter is.

One other tidbit that hasn't been touched on, the smoke trail and nitro engine noise helps alot to keep orientation of the helicopter. I have sometimes wished my 600E had a pipe and smoke trail to help keep the orientation straight when up real high or real far away.

[eightythree]

no one ever refers to engine noise and smoke while performing manuvers, it REALLY does help!!
also seeing that huge ring of smoke when doing big air loops- nothing else like it :YeaBaby:

[terrabit]

Someone earlier said nitro guys spend thoasands on fuel per year. Fuel is 22.00 for a gallon of 30% nitro. 2000.00 is 100 gallons. You will get 10 - 12 flights per gallon so you can do your own math.

I buy Cool Power 30% because that's what's available. With the case discount it's $26/gal. I get maybe 8x 8 minute flights each. If your getting 10 - 12 flights/gal, I wanna know how.

Between my electrics and my nitro I got twenty-nine flights in today. All were awesome!

[scnsaracer]

Terrabit - I don't think I am doing anything special to get 10-12 flights on a gallon. It is a trex 600 with no header tank. Also, I land at 6:30 with a little fuel left over on each flight so perhaps that adds up to an extra flight. I was thinking my buddies that are flying 90 sized birds were getting 6 or 7 flights per gallon???

[terrabit]

Seeing as how this thread is posted in the 700 forum it might be well to have stated that in your initial post. It is safe to say that nobody is getting that kind of mileage in a trex 700. That would be an unfortunate expectation for anyone going into a 90 size ship to set. I can easily burn $30 worth of nitro in a day. By contrast a $30 hk lipo for my Protos will net me an average of between 60 and 80 flights.

$30/8 flights = $3.75/flight
$30/70 flight = $0.42/flight

[smccrory]

$30/8 flights = $3.75/flight
$30/70 flight = $0.42/flight


Those numbers align well with my own records. I'm running 20% so my T700 flights are about $3.50, but either way, a full day costs me $20-40 in fuel. Fortunate for my wallet, I only have time to fly a gallon a week or so.

[jones007]

I love flying nitro but you're asking for honest answers so here goes:


Cost of fuel - most tend to spend a grand or two per year. That's a lot of batteries.
Cost of crashes - bigger birds = higher parts costs and engines can get hurt in a crash too. I busted off a muffler with one and had to replace the crankcase.
Break-in and tuning can be a pain
Periodic bearing and ring replacements
Avoidance of hot starts, over-leaning, over-reving and staying in the peak power band
Collective management - nitro's don't have the torque that electrics do
It's messier
It's noisier and there are fewer places to fly them

Augmenting what mikmerl mentioned, get the best equipment you can afford to build, fly and repair. I'm also discovering that few models is better if you want to fly a lot and advance quickly. The more models you own, the more time you'll spend at the bench.

Hummm, I'm not convinced of the first issue noted here - cost of nitro. I've been flying a Trex 600ESP for a few years, and I've found that I only get about 40 or 50 good cycles on a battery before it's too weak to really be fun anymore. Looking at just battery versus nitro costs, nothing else, my 600ESP costs me about twice as much as my 700N per minute of flight time.

I still buy name-brand batteries, so if you buy super cheap batteries, then the 600e and 700 will be close to the same cost per minute of flight. My club buys nitro fuel straight from the manufacturer, so I end up getting 30% at about $25/gallon. If you have to buy from a normal vendor and pay tax, shipping and hazmat fees, then you'll likely pay a bit more. I find that I get right about an hour of flight time per gallon, typically 9 minutes a flight with a bit left in the tank.

Out of all the helis I own, by far the most used are the Trex 700N and Trex 500.

--Kevin

[terrabit]

I've used premium lipos and hk lipos in my 10/12s vbar Logo600's. My worst lipos got 40-60 cycles before starting to diminish, the best have exceded 130 and counting. So far, I've had great experience with hk lipos. I've had great experience with Hyperion G3 and TP 4G's too, but the difference in cost is profound.

I fly a T700N and a 12s Logo600. The cost of operating the Logo is far less.

[MarkFlysHelis]

Thanks for all the great info. I think inevitably it will come down to cost, but if i build it slowly cost shouldn't be a problem. Thanks agian


Make sure you factor in the parts costs after a wreck. ( you will wreck, it happens )

I have x2 700N's and 1-700 Heli-Chris Electric. I fly the Nitros 20-1, It's just easier. I'm not going to get into the big debate on which one's cheaper, more fun, etc, etc. They both have their redeeming qualities.

Either way, please factor in the parts costs. I see a lot of people jump into the 90 sized birds, eat it and get completely demoralized when it breaks the bank to fix it. Then, inevitably, they're so nervous about crashing from that point on, the fun's gone.

Even a fairly minor crash on a 90 size can cost upwards of $300-$400 bucks.

blades - $120.00
canopy $60-$100
paddles $40.00
tail blades $25.00
misc(boom, links, rods) $50.00