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250 Class Electric Helicopters 250 Class Electric Helicopters manufactured by Align, Tarot, SYMA, Airhog, Chaos, HK and similar. |
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06-01-2010, 02:57 PM | #1 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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ds410 vs hs65mg
My trex 250 has a set of ds410 cyclics. The 410's seem to have a small issue. The mechanical setup seems fine. Everything is level where it needs to be. When I first hover up, the heli wants to tilt forward and to the left a bit. Using the trim doesn't seem to help. When I throttle up I can see the swash slightly off center until I give it just a hair more and it levels off. So when I'm at no throttle it's level, mid throttle is level, and full throttle is fine. It's really only noticeable if I get elevation, then back off the throttle, and if I don't give it a hair more throttle, is when it's not level. Could it just be the servos? Would switching to the hs65mg's fix it? I'm not sure why it's only unlevel in that situation. I can compensate with the radio so I really don't notice it too much, but is there any way to get it perfect?
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06-01-2010, 03:13 PM | #2 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Sounds like your ball links are too tight, check them by swivelling the links with tips of your finger, they should twist with just a touch - if not get a 3.5mm ball link sizer, and size all your links on the head and tail so they are nice and free moving - it makes a world of difference to how it flies.
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06-01-2010, 03:31 PM | #3 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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Thanks I'll give that a try tonight. I think they are a bit tight.
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06-01-2010, 03:34 PM | #4 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2009
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And do not forget to level your swashplate, 90 all servo's arms, adjust end points, check your 0 degree pitch and your bird should fly like on rails.
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06-01-2010, 03:51 PM | #5 (permalink) |
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Yeah that's what was confusing me. I went over everything and all looks good except for this one issue. The heli does fly really great. It's just in that certain situation right after I back off the throttle I need to compensate with the radio. It's like the right servo is just a hair off. Just a tiny bit of throttle will I guess "unstick" it for lack of a better term. I'll try to look at the ball links again to make sure they are ok. Worst case I've got 3 hs65mg I can put in. I was going to put them in my other 450, but I might as well order another set. The heli is pretty stable, I just wouldn't try inverted flight with this issue.
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06-01-2010, 04:19 PM | #6 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2009
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You could not go wrong with 65MG, no doubt. You would have to re-do your entire setup - sub-trims, end points etc. I did not even bother with 410M on my 450 Sport - 65 MG to start with.
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06-01-2010, 07:27 PM | #7 (permalink) |
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I added the HS65HB servos, don't think you need a MG servos on the 250... I have 30+ crashes and never stripped a gear? I bought 5 sets of blades for this heli when I got it, I still have 3 sets left, even with all that crashing, it is hard to break blades or gears, mind you I crash in the grass, and I have lots of practice at crashing, so I do it well
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No Plankers were injured in the making of this post! TOY BOX contents Mcp x, 450 Pro VBar, 500 VBar, 12S 600CF VBar... Mikado Logo 6003D VBar Proudly flying KBDD, MKS, Castle, Scorpion and some planks too |
06-01-2010, 08:10 PM | #8 (permalink) |
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damn thats good snj... I run ds285's in mine and on my first crash I stripped the gears in two cyclic servos. Next time i fly i will make sure there are no milk crates around lol
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Robert A. Seaview Rotary Wings RIP Roman Pirozek Jr. Minicopter Diabolo 700 / Mikado Logo 550sx |
06-01-2010, 08:21 PM | #9 (permalink) |
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lol that's some funny stuff BOB
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The ground is only one dumb thumb away!!! Trex 600CF Silver,401/9253,60XL/75amp,all the metal bling bling 250v1 410's(5065mg's when I get a minute),750g,5084mg, hyperion battery( currently my favorite heli) 450SE V2 NUE 1107/2/H/2.3, CC45apm esc,770 3D/3400g,65mg,V_Blades,4s 21ooma Hyperions |
06-01-2010, 09:07 PM | #10 (permalink) |
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So I checked the ball links on the cyclic, it all seems fine. Made a couple adjustments and still the same. Just seems like the issue is with the flybar. I was out flying about 20 min ago and while hovering, I see the fly bar pointing the direction it's leaning to. I take it down, and give it a quick eye on the leveling in throttle hold. Seemed ok. Could I have loosened a ball link end a bit and only the flybar is off? I'll run through the 50-50-50... pitch setup and see what happens.
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06-01-2010, 10:38 PM | #11 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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Just replaced the flybar, which turned out to be slightly bent. Also rechecked cg. The battery was a little too forward. A tiny bit better, but not really. I can bring to a hover, and let the right stick sit for a couple seconds. In 3-4 sec it's drifting quickly forward and a little to the left. Tracking is near perfect, and no vibrations on throttle up so I didn't check the balance on the blades. Going to tear the head down, and follow everyone's setup advice. Watching the finless setup for the 50th time now.
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06-02-2010, 02:06 AM | #12 (permalink) |
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try trimming it out on the box with the trim. see just what it takes click wise to get it right. this will help you when you are doing the set up to know what to look for. I will bet you will find just one serco that is out just a hair. I always do this before I redo a heli. and when I finally get it right it is almost always the head above the swash. one bar I missed but a 1mm give or take. some times it;s two bars that you just couldn't get to the align spec. and one you went over and the other under. I hope yuou get yours right there about the best thing going for tight flying fields. and there very fun to fly
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The ground is only one dumb thumb away!!! Trex 600CF Silver,401/9253,60XL/75amp,all the metal bling bling 250v1 410's(5065mg's when I get a minute),750g,5084mg, hyperion battery( currently my favorite heli) 450SE V2 NUE 1107/2/H/2.3, CC45apm esc,770 3D/3400g,65mg,V_Blades,4s 21ooma Hyperions |
06-02-2010, 05:37 AM | #13 (permalink) |
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Bob I had the DS285s on my first 450... they were very pron to stripping.
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No Plankers were injured in the making of this post! TOY BOX contents Mcp x, 450 Pro VBar, 500 VBar, 12S 600CF VBar... Mikado Logo 6003D VBar Proudly flying KBDD, MKS, Castle, Scorpion and some planks too |
06-02-2010, 11:27 AM | #14 (permalink) |
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The left drift is inherent in the heli, the forward drift is probably the CG being off. Check your CG (center of gravity) by placing the flybar perpendicular to the tail boom (centerline) and pick it up and balance the heli on your finger tips using the flybar. How is it leaning? forward or aft? This will help, I did notice the Outrage NRG's are smaller and allow a better CG adjustment, the hyperions I have provide a bit of forward weight bias.
If you have a larger tail servo this will be less of an issue. My 250 drifts left a bit, was more so when I had the tail and elev servo's on the same side (left). I moved the elev servo to the right side and that helped the left/right CG and reduced the left drift alot. I would look at this first since the manual for the 250 shows the servo's in the wrong positions IMO. Your servo's should be, as viewed from the tail perspective; Elev mounted on the right Tail on the left the front leftside servo should be on the top the front right side servo on the bottom This servo orientation I outlined above helps balance the heli and gets the left side servo arm away from the main gear, I suggest this since if the arm went to low it could jam the main gear, when the servo's are reversed it will not allow the servo arm to catch the main gear. I built the heli per the manual the first time and had a drift issue to the left. I changed the elev servo and it fixed most of it. The other changes were more for a just in case scenario. Check the flybar cage too, does it move a bit along the flybar? some have (including me) a sloppy fit to the flybar cage and the block. Squeezing this a bit when tightening the grub screws sometimes helps reduce the slop factor and pitch issue. BTW, have you checked the spindle shaft? might be bent a bit too... just a thought. Hope this helps.
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Carl Trex 550E FS Vbar Pro 5.2- EXI-450T Mini Vbar Pro 5.2 - EXI 450T BeastX - Trex 250SE - mCPx v1 Hp05 & HP06 w/HP03t tails - AMA #952544 |
06-02-2010, 12:26 PM | #15 (permalink) | |
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Hmm, I didn't think about checking the cg for the left drift. Only the forward. And the forward does change from battery to battery. I've got 4 800mah flightmax's, a couple hyperions, and a couple 1000mah ones. I don't really want to take the servos out yet, b/c once I do I'm putting some some 65mg's in. And the spindle, is that the feathering shaft? I have not checked that yet, but maybe it really is just CG. I'm going to try a little modeling clay on a strut and see if that helps. If so I'll just put in different servos as you suggested to balance it.
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06-02-2010, 01:51 PM | #16 (permalink) |
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Spindle/feathering shaft, same diff
I have the SE super combo with the DS410's and a DS420 on the tail, the Gyro is the 750. I have crashed this heli twice and have not stripped any servo's yet (knock on wood ) So reusing the existing servo's for the cyclic would work fine. You might want to check on the new JR servo's they are about $15 less than the 5065's (the digital version of the 65MG's, I might be wrong on the model #) if you want a digital servo other than the 410's. Good luck and let us know how it works out.
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Carl Trex 550E FS Vbar Pro 5.2- EXI-450T Mini Vbar Pro 5.2 - EXI 450T BeastX - Trex 250SE - mCPx v1 Hp05 & HP06 w/HP03t tails - AMA #952544 |
06-02-2010, 01:55 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
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Yeah I've got a set of 65mg's already, was just going to put them on my other 450. I'll work on it again after work tonight and let you know how it went.
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06-02-2010, 03:54 PM | #18 (permalink) |
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I have a set of the 65MG's on my 450 and love them, crashed that heli a few times and they are still going strong. I do like them but will be trying a set of digitals for the cyclic on my other 450 soon. I am thinking of the newer JR ones my LHS has on hand, they are the same price point as the 65MG's and have MG's too.
I am a fan of MG servo's and will not use anything else. I am also looking at servo's that are fast, i.e. less than .10sec for my Cyclic.
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Carl Trex 550E FS Vbar Pro 5.2- EXI-450T Mini Vbar Pro 5.2 - EXI 450T BeastX - Trex 250SE - mCPx v1 Hp05 & HP06 w/HP03t tails - AMA #952544 |
06-02-2010, 09:39 PM | #19 (permalink) |
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.11 seems fast enough for most... I think the JR287 is about as fast as you can get .07, but they are light on torque16? Seems it's really hard to beat the HS65MG for a 450! .11@6V and 31 for torque, almost double?
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No Plankers were injured in the making of this post! TOY BOX contents Mcp x, 450 Pro VBar, 500 VBar, 12S 600CF VBar... Mikado Logo 6003D VBar Proudly flying KBDD, MKS, Castle, Scorpion and some planks too |
06-02-2010, 09:49 PM | #20 (permalink) |
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I just spent the last hour going over the head setup again. I raised the swash plate to give more clearance, lowered the swash mix. Adjusted all the links to make sure they are even. Most of the problems are gone. There is not any drift to the left or right now. I'm still seeing a tiny bit of the original problem with it drifting either forward or back. I know for sure the elevator servo is off. If I use sub trim it's either too far forward or too far back even when I adjust it one click on my dx7. It looks like the servo is binding inside and doesn't move, doesn't move, then on one subtrim click it moves into place where it should be. I check high stick, it's fine. Check middle, it's fine. Go back low again and it's off one way or the other. One click on the subtrim and it snaps back again. I'm convinced the servo is off. I will be switching servos soon to rule this out. The only other problem I introduced is my pitch range is off. Since I moved the swash up a bit I now have +13/-9. Is this fixable by adjusting the upper links to the flybar levers, or do I need to adjust the swash again until I'm +-11 or 12? Honestly I feel like swapping the servos out should fix this and make the adjustments easier to come within specs.
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