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ekripper
08-20-2004, 03:19 AM
Hi all,
Just got back from IRCHA and did ALOT!!! of flying with the Ion's and have some good feedback to provide. I tried many different blades, batteries, and motor combos. I got to spend quite a bit of time flying with Charlie from Thunder Power and Brian from Tanic Packs there as we flew their packs back to back on the same setups to compare them. I flew Tanic, Thunder Power, and Flight Power all on the same setups so they all had a fair shake. I tried 2P, 3P and 4P packs. I flew Actro motors, Hacker motors, and LRK motors. I also tried the new V-Blade 690's, TG Gen II 690's, TT 680's, SAB 680's, MAH Gen II 690/700's and NHP 680's. So the following iare my opinions of the different setups.

First of all batteries. As far as the big packs go the TP 8000's and the Tanic 3P 7500's have about the same punch and same flight time. The Tanics wiegh in at two ounces more per pack. Both of these bigger packs performed very well with the big Actro 32-3 and I don't think you could go wrong with either one. The smaller packs were the TP 3P 6000's, the Tanic 2P 5000's and of course the Flight Power 2P 5000's. The Tanic and the Flight Power seemed to hit with the same power and naturally had the same flight time. Now I've been told these two companies use the same cells so that would stand to reason but who knows if that's true or not. You can definetly feel how light these are in the heli's flight characteristics. These packs make the heli very nimble. They seem to get a bit soft at the 6 min. mark but you can safely get 8 min. out of either pack. The Tanics don't have the spacers in them so they are easier to fit under the Ion canopy and heat up a little quicker. The batteries don't really feel good until they hit 100 deg it seems so getting the heat quicker was a plus for me. The TP 6000 were definetly my favorite pack. They had more punch than the other two small packs naturally due to the 3P configuration I would guess, yet still remained quite light and provided a nimble machine. They maintained most of their pucnch throughout the 8 min. flight. None of the packs ever got warmer than 130 either.

Now blades. I felt the new V-Blades were a bit to much for my taste as they are very rigid but I could see how alot of guys would like these. They just forced me to manage my collective alot better and Im just way to lazy for that sort of thing. The new generation TG blades look cool as hell but again, I felt they were grabby and forced me to fly the collective more. The TT and SAB's were both a very neutral blade that seemed to give good dampening and still maintain some punch. My personaly favorites were the gen 2 MAH blades. I could get away with collective mistakes yet they still had the punch and were just flat out fast through maneouvers. Kind of Ironic cuz I hated them on my glow machines when I tried them. The NHP's were ok as well but nothing that really grabbed my attention.

Oh and now the motors. Well, you all know how well the Hacker performs so I won't go there. I've discussed in another post the Actro 24-4 and how well it did so no need to reiterate that. Now the goods...the Actro 32-3 I borrowed from Chris S. and holy !@#$ man, that motor rocked. Equal to 90 power for the first 3 to 4 min. then good 80 power the rest of the pack. Since this wasn't my motor I only flew an 8 min. flight with an auto at 4 to check temps but I loved it. I only flew it with the larger packs from Tanic and TP and wouldn't recomend trying it with the 2P's or the TP 6000 3P. Might drop voltage to quick and ruin your motor. Now, I also got to fly an LRK setup in one and let me just say WHOA!!!! I have never flown a machine with that much power...ever!!! Definetly a 5 min. and land to let the power system get off it's knee's motor. I won't say much more about this motor until I can spend alot more time using it. It's possible that this one could be hard on everything but I have one coming and will fly the snot out of it and find out. Definetly a 4P pack only motor.

For you guys flying the stock setup with the Hacker I feel that the absolute best combo out there is with the TP 6000mah 3P packs. This gives you a light weight, high power setup for 8 min. of flight. The weight difference from the 8000's is very noticeable in the air and 8 min. of flight seems pretty reasonable. For those of you power mongers out there the Actro 32-3 is killer and has more than enough power to compensate for flying the larger packs. This thing sounds absolutely kick ass when spooling up! Russ I hope you get yours soon I think you'll love it. I will keep you posted on the LRK findings as I should have one this week...if this thing doesn't kill my batteries and controller look out...this may be the stump puller/90 slayer. I'll keep you posted. Hope this info. helps out a bit and I apologize for being so long winded, just had a lot to share.

Regards,
Eric Klapstein

ChrisS
08-20-2004, 09:01 AM
I too have a bit of an update on that LRK motor. I FDR'd it when I got back from IRCHA, I did'nt have time before I left as things were quite hectic. With a 4P pack of TP's and 700mm MAH V2's, I could push 98 amps through it! 3120 watts! 4.18 HP! Definately not a 3P motor, unless your batteries are truely 15 to 20C. What a rush, having that kind of power on tap is really fun.
Chris

KillerBob
08-20-2004, 10:01 AM
Geat info - could you provide a bit more detals on that LRK.... Where, What...regulator - gearing ?

Will the tp8000 hold ??- they are 8-10c to my knowledge - that's 80A max

/Lars

JonMann
08-20-2004, 11:17 AM
Eric,

Thanks for the info. Really looking forward to hearing more about the LRK setup as well. Spoke to Tim about it just before IRCHA and I know he was excited about it. After experiencing a couple Hacker failures, an alternative solution would be good.

-jon

rcman
08-20-2004, 12:35 PM
Great update Eric
I look forward to seeing this thing fly
David

ekripper
08-20-2004, 01:45 PM
Just an fyi for everyone. Actro is in the process of changing the design of their outrunners. Dario (Big Ragu) got one of the new 24-4's and one of the new 32-3's. They mount completely different from the old design and look to have better cooling capabilities. Hopefully Dario will get some pics posted here shortly for all to see and we'll post some video of the setup flying as soon as he gets the mount designed for the new motor. This could be the reason it is so difficult to get a 32-3 here in the states right now. It will probably be a minimum of 3 weeks before we can get these motors with any sort of regularity. As far as the LRK goes believe me guys...I will give tons of feedback and video the minute it gets here. Should see it today or early next week. My personal feelings are that the 32-3 will be the best compromise for big horse power and decent flight times. The LRK is going to be a show off demo type setup for 5 min. of 90 stomping power :mrgreen: I'll keep you all posted on this beast and I'll give some more feedback on the 32-3 setup as soon as we can stuff it in an Ion. Thanks for the interest guys. I was worried...this forum seemed a little too quite...we need to keep pushing the limits of this stuff to see just how good we can get it. Please jump on and let us know if you have tried any other motors and your results as it's great to know this stuff. Thanks again.

Regards,
Eric K.

KillerBob
08-20-2004, 02:44 PM
Eric - the sky is the limit. The glowhelis have been pretty much at stand-still when it comes to perfomance since we got the 90's - and in terms of HP pr cu-in it won't get much further.

The electrics have just begun - and I'm sure no-one will be impressed with 42V / 70A i 5 years. Within a few years we'll have 40C+ cells and higer energy density and then we will be pulling 300A or what about 20s packs or more.(if the weight is right) Would be fun tu burn 100V 60A.... why not...

Right now the Ion-x is a good and strong design - but I'm sure Chris will have to go to work within the next very few years to enable the transmission to cope with a lot more power - and - Chris knows what else.....

It IS fun - but it will get even better... a lot :D

/Lars

ChrisS
08-20-2004, 07:39 PM
I have been working with several of the "magnum" series motors from LRK. Currently, we have several more of these motors on order for trial by a few of our pilots as well as one of the new "Triton" motors, which is bigger still. In it's lower turn form, the magnum is quite the beast, but only a five minute motor and as such would be difficult to market with any kind of a guarantee in this product.
However, the higher turn motors are much more "user friendly" and yet still deliver very good power.

What is cool is that the motor is easy to dissassemble and multiple stators can be exchanged into the same rotor case, which makes the motor "field adaptable" for whatever the pilot may want to do. It is possible to carry two or more stators with you to the field, and in a half hour or so completely change over the model for different things.

The motor works well with many speed controls as long as they can offer a higher degree of timing advance. The Hacker 77-O-heli or 77-3P-heli work very well with it. As do the Schulze 32-XX controls. With the Hacker controls, I like 20 to 30 degrees of advance with these motors. And yup, a 77 amp control will get a bit warm after going five minutes with this motor (~120 degrees)...it has not yet thermalled off though.

Yes, when I first looked at the FDR data that I retrieved, I too worried about the ability of the batteries to handle the loads. A quick call to TP allieviated this worry. Jason says as long as the 4P packs are used, there should be no problem. I am running CBA curves on all my packs now to see if after many hard uses at IRCHA, they have degraded at all. I'll post back here if there has been any change in their characteristics.

Chris

BigRagu
08-20-2004, 11:08 PM
Yep, I've probably got the only two "New" ACTRO Heli motors in the country . . .the NEW 24-4 and my favorite the NEW 32-3.

I've been busy designing the mount to stuff this NEW BEAST in the RIPPER'S ION! :wink:
But I guess I'll need to run downstairs and snap a few pictures for all you "Big Block" Fanatics . . .you all know by now the ole "Ripper" definitely feels the need . . .for speed!

As Eric stated we threw every combination of Blades, Batteries, and Motors that are in production and available to the consumer today! Miniature aircrafts "ION-X" took everything we could throw at it.
This bodes well for the flexibility miniature aircraft designed into the ION-X, it's truly an "Electric Freaks" dream . . .thank you Chris and the entire Minair Team!

[Tim, doesn't he need a raise?]

However we're also FIXIN' to try and RIP-IT-UP with the "Next Generation" of OUTRUNNERS.

This new "Heli" series of ACTRO outrunners from Kohler looks much BEEFIER than previous offerings. By providing a solid or stationary "Top" mount for the rotating can . . .Kohler has provided an unobstructed or open lower end.

This New Motor Design should provide plenty of "Self" cooling. (Look Ma . . .no Fan!)

Now where's that camera . . .back atcha' soon :wink:


BigRagu
:D :D :D

fitenfyr
08-21-2004, 04:31 PM
Oh great.... :roll:
I just picked up my ION-X yesterday, not even built and you guys are telling me I need to get NEW stuff. :D :D :D

I agree these outrunner motors in the ION are the ticket to a broad spectrum of use down the road.

I predict I will be all electric by next year from what I am reading and seeing at the field. :D

Now one of you motor gurus test the AXI will ya? :D Or at least make a mount for it so I can. :D

ChrisS
08-21-2004, 10:20 PM
Sorry Jason, I just haven't had the time yet. I was looking at one in the hobby shop today though....awful thin wire on that stator...which could be a good thing. Wish there were a way I could talk to one of their techie types. I need to finish up what I'm doing with these LRK's and then I'll get to them...I promise.

Chris

fitenfyr
08-22-2004, 02:37 AM
No problem. Know how that goes. I have to find time to buld this thing now. :D

I have heard nothing but good things about those motors. Couple guys are flying the little ones in shock flyers and such withh great results.

Do you think you guys could come up with some stuff for the care and feeding of these batteries?
Maybe a techie session from the TP gang on here?
I have been hearing from more than one source about charging packs on two chargers causing imbalance and doing bad things to the packs.
I am planning on being patient and working with one charger for each set of packs.
I know this stuff is changing daily, but we seem to be updating this info as fast as it chages.

BigRagu
08-22-2004, 08:27 PM
As promised here are the new HELI Series of ACTRO's . . .need to run, finishing the adapter drawings in AutoCad. So we can spool this up next weekend.

Ciao'

BigRgau
:D :D :D

DrScoles
08-23-2004, 08:29 PM
So Eric, The actro obvious power increase over the hacker?? I can't wait til one of you guys finds a balance of power and reliability so we can start rockin and rollin :D I like the power of the hacker I have now, but sounds like the outrunners may be better, and I like the idea of losing the middle gear....

Let's go boys!!! Get this shit figured out!!!!!


:mrgreen:

Mike

misskimo
08-24-2004, 01:19 AM
well I knew from looking at JK flying the 32-3 from the start that the outrunner was going to be a hit , if anyone seen that demo last year with the new gasser flying first and the Ion with the actro next with the older gen 1 batteries and how that bird moved . thats the reason why I converted my fury with the outrunner , well I havent had the greatest of luck this year with it but I do still have it , while rebuilding it twice and now changing from 13s3p to 10s3ps which means changing the 32-4 to 32-3 just to see how that motor runs , one thing before the last crash due to the chip falling out ,my gearing was wrong from the start, because of rick sending out a wrong gear when first converted it , 93 t instead of the 95 that was needed, meant a 2100 to 2200 head speed and alittle bogging because of that . Also that headspeed was the result of the first crash , tail hub was the 3mm one , but anyway one thing for sure that I will need to get . 10s4ps , since going down from 54 peak volts to 42 will mean higher amp draws and higher temps with shorted flight times. HV has its benefits but I was on the limits of blowing it . 12s3ps would be the trick with maybe a 11t pinion , but 2 sets of batteries is better than 3 like I been running . soon I will find out


Tony

ekripper
08-26-2004, 01:16 AM
FYI,
The Actro 32-3 is back in stock at Hobby Lobby. Get em quick, they will make your Ion a mean machine.

Regards,
Eric K.

Russ McC
08-26-2004, 03:19 AM
Looks like mine was sent today! :lol:

ScotY
09-21-2004, 07:02 PM
I was looking at the pics of the new heli version Actro that the BigRagu posted. I can't quite tell, but do those...not sure what you'd call them..."vanes" on the end cause any forced cooling?

ChrisS
09-22-2004, 02:35 PM
No Scot, the "vanes" are not swept or in any way shaped to form fan blades. But they do open up the motor a LOT. Also the bottom silver part of the case just come right off, thus opening up that end of the motor as well. Hopefully all this will allow the motor to cool a good bit better. I plan on using the same shaft mounted fan on them as I have been on other outrunners...I think this will work out very well.

Chris

ScotY
09-22-2004, 03:45 PM
Hey Chris,

Hmmm...so does this mean the motor BigRagu posted actually looks like this with the cover off?

How are you mounting the fan on the heli version motor?

GJestico
09-23-2004, 01:24 AM
Are these new style Actros available ? who has em in stock ?
Greg

ChrisS
09-23-2004, 02:01 PM
Scot, yes, like that on the "silver" end...but obviously different than that on the other end. On the other end, the "black" end, there is a screw in the center of the motor, I intend to make an adaptor that replaces that screw with a threaded 6mm shaft, then I will use the motor like any other Actro, except there will be a shaft sticking out the bottom. Fan, pinion adaptor, pinion and bearing block...stacked up in that order.

Greg, I do not know as to their availability. My best advice at this point would be to go directly to the source. I am fairly confident that none of the retailers on this side of the pond will have any yet. You may also contact Gerd at Minicopter as that is where the two that I have came from originally.

Understand though, these are not tried yet...

Chris

JonMann
09-30-2004, 04:21 PM
Chris,

You wouldn't happen to have any of the Actro motor 5mm shaft adapters back there that I can buy from you?? Hobby-Lobby is out of them till the end of Oct and like to get one of these Actro motors installed and running sooner than later.

Let me know.

Thanks - jon

ChrisS
10-01-2004, 11:15 PM
Jon
Try "Hobby Club" out in California, they sent me one a couple weeks ago.
Chris