Logo 14. 611gyro, tail blowing out, settings & Rant

[OICU812]

Well into winter bigtime so I am into some projects to perfect things. Right about this time of year when I can not fly at all I rebuild, do little projects and sometimes like now, think too much lol.

Anyhow..... with my 611s I always have only set the tail mechanically so with non heading hold on the heli sits perfect in hover and if it sways in any direction it would be nose right. The after that I set my limits to max without binding on both ends. I tried the F3C but it seems that the stopping power is there but also seems abit abusive to the tail imho so I switched to 3D that seems to soften up the stops substantially. Anyhooo continuing on, I have always left the rest of the settings on default on this gyro, I have not tinkered with any other settings in the amp. My question is am I missing out on any performance on tweaking something within those settings?

Reason I ask is last season I felt that once in awhile I had to drive the tail, it did not feel 100% locked in. This was even running 2250 Headspeed with a variety of tail blades like MAH90mm, NHP 85mm, Radix 92mm and a few others I can not even remember.

So I got to thinking, lets see if anyone is doing anything different than me and maybe there is something I do not know or have not tried. :lol:

[Finless]

Well for me I have not changed other setting myself and some of the best pilots I fly with have not either..... In fact some violate the 110 to 120 end point setup "rule" and say"it works" which kind of dumb founds me.....

Not sure anything else needs to be messed with based on my current knowledge and input from others....

Bob

[MrMel]

I setup mine the exact same way as you, im running 92mm radix, I make sure they are loose (fall under own weight), else you can introduce vibrations which could make it mushy.

Which hole on the servo arm are you using?

[BobbySmith]

Shawn i have been seeing the same Issue about 3minutes into flight I have to fly the tail it doesnt hold well

I think it is more of a power issue then anything The Radixx 92mm tail blades have worked the best on this issue but it still does it if you notice in the Jeti video about 3 minutes in it looks like iam just pirouteing but iam actually fighting the tail. Matt was telling me he noticed it as well runing alot of pitch and cyclic .
I t reminds me of anitro machine when the motor isnt running right.

I can say between my 4 packs only 2 packs do it reallbad and the other 2 dont wich leads back to a power issue

I adjusted some limits in my 611 and a few other things i will let you know how it works

[OICU812]

Bobby,
I am only running 11/11 pitch and I agree I think it is a power related issue as well, but needed to check on my parameters. I run pretty big headspeed and power and this is the one thing that bothers me about this machine, only thing really but it is a pain in my arse. I would hope that with all these test pilots out there for Mikado to fine tune the tail ratio or some improvement of sorts is made very soon, it seems this is not brought up all that often but yet exists with all who own and fly them, really boggles me that this has not been rectified, and very upsetting to be honest. BTW when it blows out it goes 180 degrees sometimes, not just a little shove, like you can actually hear it grunt it hunts to find its heading so hard.

Bob,
My Endpoints for tr are 97/97 in my radio, anything over that and it is crazy pirouette speed. My Limits on my amp are 115/135 on both machines, are you talking about the amp limits or what is this 110/120 rule you speak of...?

Thanks for responses so far, are you guys running F3C or 3D mode?

Mel,
Pretty sure I am 14mm out from center of the horn. I'll have to check but pretty sure...

[Daniel Jetschin]

Shawn, I don't have these problems that you guys have.. Whatcha doin ? :shock: :dontknow

[OICU812]

I dunno maybe I need to add a couple hundred rpm to the head and possibly a more grunt motor?? Are all your settings in your 611 default Danny, 3D or F3C? Maybe it is because not everyone has GodLike collective management like you to, lol. Ralph has to realise not everyone is a 3D lord. hehe :glasses2:

I have no clue man, driving me nuts though....It is not all the time or every flight, but quite often I simply feel it is not locked in, I have seen several videos now where you can see people fighting the tail abit, there is something not 100%. I have never had this with any other heli I have owned or even for that matter flown.

[NTM]

I'm still running mine with the weak neu 1910 1.5y/10s 2500mah setup and futaba 502/9254 on the tail and it's rock solid through all maneuvers :dontknow
Head speed is at 2100 rpm, mikado 580mm mains and radix 95mm tail blades. 12 degrees of pitch.

Perhaps your 9254 is going on vacation ?
Losing tail hold after a few minutes of flight time is certainly a symptom of that.

Edit: I forgot to mention that when I put the stretch boom on I added two more pushrod supports as well, perhaps with the high demand your putting on the tail, your experiencing some deflection of the wire pushrod.

[Lorents]

Just a thought... Given high speed, high angle of attack and some turbulence from the main rotor is it possible for a tail blade to stall?

[OICU812]

This is the 9256 servo with the 611 Nathan, I also run 6mm CF boom supports so that is not an issue either. In regards to the rod going back I do not see any reason to add more guides as I have them spaced pretty decent. Pretty sure I am 13-14mm from center of horn, where you guys running it and again I ask F3C or 3D mode anyone?

[MrMel]

3D, see my PM :)

[OICU812]

Ok yea, that is where I am at in 3D mode already. My Limits as mentioned are 115/135 adn in my radio my endpoints are 97/97 for my pirouette speed. Strange....

[BobbySmith]

I switched to the Mikado paddles the other day so i took some cyclic out tonight problem solved!

[MrMel]

You can always try one hole further out on the servo arm.

[NTM]

This is the 9256 servo with the 611 Nathan, I also run 6mm CF boom supports so that is not an issue either.

I'd look at deflection of the rudder pushrod, if you're only running the three supports from the shorter stock boom with the longer logo 20 boom/pushrod.

[BobbySmith]

Shawn i guess i should say when i was running the Vpaddles i didnt have a problem but a week agao i switch to the Miakdo paddles and that is whenit started to be reall noticeble so tonight i took 5% of cyclic out and boom problem solved


Bobby

[OICU812]

I am only running about 6.5 degrees cyclic on ail/ele :roll: You are saying you reduced that and it improved tail control somehow?.... :roll: I must be missing or mis understanding something... :oops:

Nathan the Logo 20 boom is only about an inch to inch and a half longer, it is not the rod pushing sideways or anything goofy.

Also to note, I had sent Bob an email about endpoints etc... When I set up any gyro and tr servo on any heli I have always made it so that in Non Heading hold my heli will sit perfectly straight on the nose. I always have made sure the ball on the tr servo is perfectly 90, the slider arm however may not be 90 degrees as I set so the tr blades as mentioned hold heli straight in non HH which is about 3.5 - 5 degrees. Is that the majority setup by chance? I know Bob had mentioned he sets his so he has slider at 90 and ball at 90 but not so it holds center in non HH. Shouldn't matter either way on the 611 should it...?

Wish I could go and try to mess with this some more, but I will have to wait to see some warmer weather. We are having a much colder winter than normal here with snow this year as well, -35 Degrees celcius today, and I work outside alot it was cold as you know what on the fingys!!

[Daniel Jetschin]

I run 3D or F3C mode, 3D piros more consistent but F3C has a crazy pirouette speed wich I like :glasses2: Limits around 135-140. Gain 28%

[BobbySmith]

When you run alot of pitch and cyclic it has the same effect !!

[Finless]

Shawn just to reiterate how I set up but yea with a 611 since you can change the limits on the AMP for each direction you can set up for hover when HH is off since you can still get full throw on the slider by setting the A and B limits in the AMP.
But what I dont like is limit A and B wont be even close to the same.

I know this get argued a lot but since I was told over a year ago to set up this way it has always worked for me ever since.

1) Set up so the servo arm is 90 and the tail pitch slider is center on the tail shaft so you get the same amount of throw both directions
2) Set up the servo arm so the ball distance on the arm allows you to get between 110 and 120 on the A&B limits in the 611 AMP. I have been told by several that this is optimum for resolution and speed. Going higher means the servo as to travel farther to get the same effect and going lower means you loose resolution. between 110 and 120 is suppose to be the optimum trade between speed and resolution.
3) Set your radio rudder channel end points for desired piro rate. I tend to run around 130 to 140. If you want the piro rate the same both directions then adjust each side of the rudder channel end point to achieve that.

Anyway thats how I do it. Now I will say I have only flown Will's Logo 14 two times before shipping it to him and I did not push it that hard since it wasnt my heli. So I really cant say if this setup works fully and if there was a tail hold problem (it didnt appear to have any). I am building my own starting next week so I will learn more once I get flying mine....

Bob

[OICU812]

Thanks alot fellas, I am going to try that method, it is all that is left to try.

[Daniel Jetschin]

Nah what's left to try would be another great pilot behind the sticks :lol: :smokin:

[MrMel]

Ouch :)

[NTM]

Thanks alot fellas, I am going to try that method, it is all that is left to try.



I tried out 14 degrees of pitch and somewhere between 6.5 and 7 degrees of cyclic today... still solid as a rock. I'm running less power but also alot less weight :dontknow
It didn't bog as bad as I thought it would.

The tail servo horn is set up at 90 degrees, then sub trimmed on the transmitter in rate mode. 125 for travel on the gyro amp and the linkage is located at 13mm out on the servo horn. The only real difference I can see (besides the power difference, of course) are the 5 pushrod supports I'm running on the boom.

Is the tail blowing out in the same direction all the time ?
Is it just nervous in maneuvers that load the rotor disk up ( tight backwards loop), or is it unstable in general straight line backwards flight ?

[OICU812]

then sub trimmed on the transmitter in rate mode. Since when does anyone do this on Futaba gyros? I thought this was isolated to JR gyros and "not" to be done on Futaba as it even states in the manual.
?? I am confused why you do that on a Futaba gyro Nathan, maybe someone can learn me on that comment...? I personally have never seen or heard of anyone doing this on any Futaba gyro there is, if you run a JR gyro I apoligise but I was certain you ran Futaba.

are the 5 pushrod supports I'm running on the boom.

Also in regards to your extra rod guides, for giggles I will order more through Ken next order as it would not hurt but not certain how much help it will provide, either way I am willing to try.


Anyhow looking better if I am to set it equal throws it is only a thread or two out from where I am at, nothing significant as zero drift lines up really close allready to center of the slider. My ball is exactly 13.4mm from center of horn on mine. Where are you guys running yours?
The next hole out takes it to 16.5 mm or so on any horns I have laying around here.



Nah what's left to try would be another great pilot behind the sticks
And yes Danny loves to shoot the digs to me, lol it's ok I can take it :D

Limits around 135-140. Gain 28% How do you get this much??, is your ball somewhere in the 10-12mm from center of horn mark?? I can't get close to that being 13.4mm out.... :roll:[/quote]