Another Industrial Turbine

[Danyboy]

Thanks for the advice, guys! :)

Bottle kept warm inside the house, when taken outside, it's been kept only inside the jacket (it's mild 8°C outside, though).

Bottle has always been kept upright.
On the first trial with the previous owner, he held it (unconsciously) horizontal, no discussion about a successfull start there... ;)

Problem is, if you fill that little bottle with gas only, you have waaay not enough capacity for even one single startup that catches at the first second...
THAT's why I ask...

Startup with "external" gas bottle always works fine...

Maybe a picture from your installations, please?
I'd be very interested in your layout concerning positioning of bottle, solenoid and turbine.
I try to get a descent shot of my installation in the meantime... :)

Cheers,

Daniel

[cbergen]

The Industrial Turbine comes standard with the 32 oz tanks already fitted.

On that particular bird, brand new, max power setting at 145,000, we were getting appx 18 minutes of hover time.

Here's a pic of that same bird!! http://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=26072

[wolfdad]

Phil,
That was the only point I wanted to be sure to make on the warranty issues. I honestly believe that the kero-start issues will be overcome and the systems will very soon be included as a standard item. BTW, I am definitely in favor or elimination of the start gas altogether, however I surely don't want to see, as I know you do, somebody go down that road and risk an "out of warranty" situation.

Daniel, do you have an adjustable gas valve/solenoid? You may want to adjust that, if so, to port more gas to the turbine. I have successfully achieved up to 4 starts on a three ounce (small) bottle. I currently use a small Robarts retract air bottle for starts on my Bergen. Mild? No offense, but 8° C is NOT mild in my neck of the woods. Let me see if my fingers and toes work correctly. 15° C is standard day at sea level which equates to 59° F. 8° C equates to roughly half of 15° or about 29° F and, for both me and start gas, that is cold :wink: Not going to go into gas partial pressure, etc.....way too early in the morning here to start smoke-checking my brain, however, that is still cool where you are and I would suggest keeping your start gas bottle in an interior pocket. Additionally, if you filled your bottle (as I do) before leaving the house in a warmer area, you probably also lost some gas pressure there as well.
Doc

[Sara]

It would appear that kero start has had a mixed reception from the flyers. I know a lot of people like it, but others have reverted to propane for various reasons. For example, Chopper Jockey's friend Peter Rob, who is a very keen JetCat flyer, said a couple of days ago on RR "With the JetCats the quickest way to start up temperature is still gas, so I have one kerostart and the rest Gas"

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[wolfdad]

Chris,
That sounds about right. The last time we talked, I believe the dry weight difference between mine and your industrial bird was about 5 lbs. heavier on my side, so my 14 plus minutes to flame-out sounds right on the money. Nice looking bird, however the guy flying it needs some serious work :wink:

Sara, when Wren builds and sells an engine with kero-start as a part of the package and is willing to warrant the entire package, I will most certainly jump on the band wagon. Having recently spoken with Al Wert, the US Jaka distributor, he indicated that neither he nor Peter recommend it either.

The Orbit system has gotten some very good reviews, however, I think I am still going to wait until the manufacturers start recommending and warranting the system.
Doc

[Sara]

Daniel,

If you want to use onboard gas, then try using two small gas bottles linked together. Also, when filling them, put a small amount of gas in and then let it out - this cools the can and enables you to get more in.
Your engine is obviously an older one (Mark 1 or 2) and I doubt it was sold with a control valve on the side of the solenoid. I have both these and the gas bottles available here at Wren.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[Danyboy]

Phil,

As noted farther above, starts were successfull with the external bottle. I haven't tried the onboard as of yet, because the pervious owner reported that the engine simply wouldn't go through a complete startup-cycle, the gas empty before the fuel came to play...
No, I do not have a control-valve, only the solenoid.
I still ask my initial question, maybe rephrasing it:
Do you fill pure gas into that onboard-bottle or do you also get some liquid in there?
I imagine very well, that if you fill with liquid (or at least try to get that in), you have a vast increase in available gas volume, which would last several cycles.
If liquid, how do you fill to make sure there's no liquid getting to the nozzles? Simply a T-fitting at the onboard-bottle, onse side connection to the external bottle for fillup, center piece into onboard-bottle, third connection to the solenoid, the amount of liquid which may enter the tube toward the nozzle will evaporate on its way to the engine, so there's nothing to worry about?

Sara,

Thanks a lot for the hint about the control valve.
Yes, indeed it is an older version, according to "plans and building instruction", it is an 2nd edition, Version 1 - August 2000", acc manual that valve would be optional...
Although as far as the owner said, the fuel-nozzles were modified.
Previous owner was Adrian Reutemann from switzerland, he spoke highly of you and your support via phone... :) I know it might sound funny, but maybe you could pull up the records to see what I actually own and from there, what upgrade-parts would be recommended?
I suppose the control valve you mention would regulate the flow of gas in relation to RPM, therefore give the possibility to control and optimize the air/gas-mixture at the gas-ignition-phase? Most important - since I do not have my baby in front of me and can check for free sockets - Could this even be hooked up to my current FADEC or is a newer version required?
I am trying slowly to catch up... ;)
I will get back to you about further updates!
By the way: Did you receive my email about oils? I wrote from dnovet[ad]gmx.net to info[ad]wrenturbines.co.uk.

I really appreciate all the hints I get here, which I will also implement if there's no help...
Please, don't get me wrong...
But...
Maybe someone could please give me nevertheless a hint to my initial question?
Do you fill the onboard-bottle with gas only or do you try to get liquid gas in there as well?
As long as I don't know about that, I cannot really go forward with troubleshooting/modifying/optimizing the system...

Cheers,

Daniel

[wolfdad]

Daniel,
Sorry we all missed the response you were looking for. Gas, and only gas is what you strive for. Both the filling and receiving bottle should be upright to avoid getting as little liquid as possible into your starting bottle.

I think, in a round' about way, we did answer your initial question in that we recommended having the starting bottle in an upright position, so that the liquid settles to the bottom and what you get out the nozzle is gas and only gas.
Doc

PS I think you will go a looong way before you will find anyone that doesn't speak highly of Sara, Roger and the rest of the Wren team with one exception and that a$$hole was discussed in another post.

[chopper jockey]

Daniel.
when I used to start with propane, I inverted the filler bottle and shook it for several seconds when filling the onboard bottle, then left it to equalise the right way up. This allowed some liquid into the small on board bottle. Also I routed the pipe to the engine exiting upwards from the bottle, persuading the liquid to stay in the bottle and only gas vapour to go to the engine for start up.

[Danyboy]

Oooookay... :)

Wolf, let me assure you, to get misunderstood, there's always a need for two people and I believe I wasn't that clear in the beginning... ;)
But let me put it in my own words: You use that onboard bottle (dimensions overall roughly 63mmx33mm/2,5"x1,25") by filling it with gas only and it lasts three starts? Well then I guess my predecessor did something wrong...
May I ask, what's your glow-power-setting?

Chopperjockey, thanks for the input... I'll keep your words in mind shoudl I go for mod... :)

Well then, I guess I made up my mind, I'll reactivate the onboard-gas installation unchanged. If there should be no help (could also be a coupling that's pissing the gas away...), if leak-checked and still not satis, I'll modify so I can additionally get also some liquid in there. From the current installation, I do not believe there will be any liquid getting into the turbine, though only tests will show...

Thanks a lot guys! :)

Sara,
as I see now, I do have the "AR-220-Hall" type FADEC, which does not allow further connections. Please confirm, that valve you mentioned would then only be a mechanically adjusted restrictor which limits gas flow? If I am correct, then I rather check the igniter-power first and also adjust the lower and upper RPM-limit for starter engagement during gas-ignition-phase.
As the HDT tells me, I am running software 2.2, could you please tell me what's the actual software and whether there were major changes and its worth to update?
Already now a big cheers!

Again, thanks a lot folks, I'm really looking forward to next weekend...
I wish I simply could tear Tuesday through Friday off the calendar, so when I wake up tomorrow, it's weekend... :)

Sincerely,

Daniel

[heliman53]

I have attached a small bottle to the triggervalve with a tee, the hose coming from this has the self closing dissconnect on it I charge this small can with a few squeezes of the trigger and lay it on the ground next to the machine with the

[heliman53]

I attached a small can to the trigger valve on my filler supply with a tee, the hose coming from this has the self closing end of the dissconnect on it. I charge the small can with a few squeezes of the trigger then lay the can on the ground next to the machine with the small can facing up, then I connect the line to the open end connector on the helicopter thus sending only gas to the engine while having a little liquid in the small can if I like. Craig B

[wolfdad]

Daniel,
Let me check my FADEC settings and I will let you know. Off the top of my head, I don't recall, however I did set it up a bit for colder weather operation and was pleased with the results. Quite honestly, it takes very little gas to get one of these "puppies" started and I can honestly say the performance with the gas bottle on its side or other than vertical does diminish its capability.

You are exactly right and I apologize for not digging what you wanted to know out and directly answering your question. The entire idea is to put gas into the turbine vice liquid and ambient conditions both when you fill your start bottle and when you actually start can have a large bearing.

Best to you,
Doc

[cbergen]

If I'm not mistaken, you get both Butane and Propane in to get the engine to light off.
You can certainly have too much butane, especially in the small canister ,we have had to empty the butane on occasion, I can tell it needs emptying when I only get one or two starts off of a fill.

I have my regulator wide open, and on ECU's that support it, gas % at least as high as 75%. I typically get 3 or 4 starts off of a fill.

When you pull the trigger on the Powermax, you get a spray of liquid AND gas. No shaking of the can, turning it over, or other acrobatics should be necessary. A can of Powermax that is low, or cold, can also exhibit the excess Butane problem, however.

Unless what I'm seeing is the propane turning into a liquid as it expands upon release from the can.....

If we don't want the liquid, then why do we use the Powermax, which is a mixture of propane and Butane vs straight propane?

[Sara]

Daniel,

Adrian Reutemann's helicopter? I have the full history. Adrian is a really nice guy and has been a good customer of ours - he was one of the first to fly a helicopter powered by a Wren. He speaks excellent English (as you do - thank goodness, as my German is not very good) and I used to enjoy talking to him on the phone. I'll answer your other questions in private mails as this particular heli was built over a long period and therefore some of my replies may be specific to your engine and ECU, and not relevant for people with more recent engines.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[Danyboy]

Sara,

I am really looking forward to conversations!

Adrian is a nice guy indeed, shame he does not have enough time to fly his heli (still got a Raptor...) more.
He's sad to have given away his baby, but he's also happy due to my enthusiasm and knowledge on the topic...

Please, feel free to write whenever you want, if you need pictures taken of something, just give me a shout, I'll be glad to help out!

I did some "light-off-tests" and found that glow-power was a tad low. It now catches almost instantly, but the supplied volume of gas really seems not to be sufficient: It's just spent when light-off is detected... :(
A flow-reduction by the gas-control-valve really might help... I'm looking forward to your ideas!
I could live well with the fact, that I have to charge gas before each flight, as long I don't have to fiddle the canopy every second or third flight off and on and off and on just to get the gas charged...

Looking forward to your mail!

Cheers from switzerland,

Daniel

[Danyboy]

OK, folks...

Problems solved due to Sara... :)

Previous owner regarded a gas restriction valve as optional and Bling...
It isn't...
As soon as the onboard-bottle will empty, the gas-mixture in the turbine will come to acceptable level for ignition, after which no gas is left to keep the turbine alive...

It's as always: Get the latest manuals for the things you use and do it first the way the manufacturer recommends, and when in doubt, ask the manufacturer himself for opinion. Only after it's proven to work, you may start to make up your own mind... ;)

Cheers,

Daniel

[wolfdad]

Daniel,
Super news and the best of luck to you.
Doc

[heliman53]

Danyboy, glad you got it worked out and I can see where no restriction would be a problem when set as to manufacturers settings my Wren had a strong pop on ignition after a few runs I closed the restrictor valve a little and now you barely here the ignition and it starts great every time. Craig B

[cbergen]

I kinda like the loud pop!! :smokin:

[heliman53]

Chris, yea it's cool but was scaring the hell outa my friends! Craig

[rkeith2]

I have mine dialed down so smooth now it almost sounds like kero start -

oooooh Forest Lawn :smokin:

[Sara]

22nd January 2007
The latest news on Kero start would appear to be that it is not always recommended by JetCat USA. Someone has just posted this on the "other site".

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t315320p1/

Kero start Vers propane

Hello
I recently purchase a vario PHT3 and was also wondering about the kero start setup . So I call BOB WILCOX from jatcat usa directly and I was told that the reason the kerso start was even made possible was because some countries have a hard time getting the propane /butane mix. He also told me that here in the usa a glow plug cost about 6 to 9 bucks verses 180 dollars when the kerso one burns out. He recomended staying with the propane here in the usa because we have the avaliblity of geting the colman powermax fuel so save your money and spend it on Jp4 and turbine Oil.
Best regards
Michael Rose
EastCoast Vario Field Rep