RAZOR Motors explained :) well at least IMO

[EricLarson]

Here is a little FAQ via my opinion on the motor choices for the Razor.

Your flight time will vary a lot based on flying style, pack choice, and motor selection. With electric we can easily get more power, but we sacrifice flight time and some times run into heat issues. Here is a run down on some motor choices.

Neu 1515-2Y

This is one of the strongest motors for the Razor. It spins very fast at 1100KV and it provides very consistent power. The feel of the motor is very clean and it just pulls and pulls. It is not very peaky but rather just smooth solid power. This motor is limited to 5 min flight time at 18.46:1 ratio (where we run it) and works very well with 3700 packs. I would not run it on 4350 as over 5 min you will probably over heat the motor. Expect 4.5 - 5 min on 3700's.

Hacker A50-14S

This motor is probably 5% less powerful than the Neu. It is very user friendly and inexpensive to purchase. Hacker here in the USA provides tech and repair support. There are no heat issues with this motor and you can run 3700 or 4350 packs. It has a bit more robust power in the beginning of the flight and then it tapers off some during the flight. In fact I would say it may be more powerful than the Neu right away (very high torque) then it tapers off. This is the motor I run right now at 8.66:1. Expect 5 min on 3700 and 6 min on 4350's.

Kontronik Tango 45-08

This is the most efficient motor we have run. It runs about 10-15% less power than the Neu. No heat issues. It runs with solid 50 nitro + power and is very clean on power. It is just a very solid setup but it may not "blow your mind". The Tango is also very high quality. Expect 6 min on 3700 and 7-8 on 4350's.

Actro 24-4

Very high quality. It's power tapers off some during the flight. You need to run a LOT of pitch with this motor and it is very happy. You should get similar to the Hacker power and flight time from this motor, maybe a few % less. Flight times are same as the Hacker and you can use 3700 or 4350 cells with no heat issues.

For what we fly. Most of us liked the Neu for power. It is a good motor but you need to watch the flight times or it may overheat. Bobby is flying the 24-4 and having solid results. I am using the Hacker right now and very happy with it. I also had the Tango, and Clint is flying the Tango and really likes it.

We all ran the Kontronik Jazz 55-10-32 control on 10S packs. It is pure plug and play with NO issues at all. It just works flawless.

Several of us are now flying the Castle Creations 85 and 110HV controls with good success. They are much more adjustable but need to be "tweaked" into your setup. So far we do not have near the flight time on them that we did the Jazz but right now they are working well. USA tech support is a huge PLUS. You should be able to tune this control for more power or more efficient depending on your choice.

[OICU812]

Hey Eric that is a good summary, thanks. :wink:

[epc2]

Eric,

Do you know the reason why the Neu 1515 runs so hot on the Razor , The same motor geared 17:1 runs cool for 6 minutes in a Trex 600 and even cooler on the Xero G 600 for 6-7 minutes.??

epc2.

[heliflip]

epc2, the xero g's are running an 18.89:1 gear ratio. They were incorrect in stating that they were using a 10 tooth pinion. It is actually a 9 tooth.

Eric, have you tried an 18.89:1 gear ratio? The xero g's do seem to get close to 7 minutes of very aggressive 3d.

The xero g camp is stating that they must be getting 7 minutes due to the gear box. I am not certain this is the case unless someone can explain it to me intelligently. Box or no box... a gear ratio is a gear ratio is my thought.

[epc2]

epc2, the xero g's are running an 18.89:1 gear ratio. They were incorrect in stating that they were using a 10 tooth pinion. It is actually a 9 tooth.

Eric, have you tried an 18.89:1 gear ratio? The xero g's do seem to get close to 7 minutes of very aggressive 3d.

The xero g camp is stating that they must be getting 7 minutes due to the gear box. I am not certain this is the case unless someone can explain it to me intelligently. Box or no box... a gear ratio is a gear ratio is my thought.

Heliflip , I agree box or no box gear ratio is gear ratio.

epc2.

[EricLarson]

? have no idea as if you run the #'s on power they just don't add up on 6-7 min with the 1515. You just need to look at power output and that is pure voltage and current. Heat is a result of the loading and current draw.

I think if a person flew the model in a moderate 3D or sport way then you can go longer. It is hard to compare as you need the same person flying the machine. Will was flying his ION with a power system that rocked and he was getting great flight times and cycles. I flew it 1 time and puffed the packs...... It really depends on flying ability and style. If you want a real stress test to see if a setup will melt down or not let H.C. fly it. His flying style is brutal on E-heli's and a GREAT test.

At 17:1 it will run cool, but the head speed would be low. We run about 2100 at 18.46:1. The heat is a result of the current draw and the power output levels we are seeing. If we gear it back, it will run cooler of course but that is not what we where looking for out of the motor. Geared back it would run like the Tango.

Mongo, you will need to ask MA but if you look at their record on delivery vs any of the other brands you will see they are WAY WAY faster. The kits should ship the 1st or 2nd week of Dec. As some of the new start-ups in this hobby have realized, kitting heli's is not as easy as many believe. Believe the team guys when they all say we all want kits shipping ASAP. I also know Tim and the crew are working non stop and at a brutal pace to get them out the door.

[epc2]

?
At 17:1 it will run cool, but the head speed would be low. We run about 2100 at 18.46:1. The heat is a result of the current draw and the power output levels we are seeing. If we gear it back, it will run cooler of course but that is not what we where looking for out of the motor. Geared back it would run like the Tango.

Eric,

@ 17:1 the H/S is higher than @ 18.46:1 ????

epc2.

[EricLarson]

Woops, ya need to think a bit before I jump to my preconceived ideas :) I would not have thought anyone was running it at those ratios. Very odd. At 10S your head speed unloaded would be well over 2300. You can back that off with the Gov in the speed control but the current peaks would be pretty bad. The more aggressive the ratio the higher the current loads. Speed controls regulate the time the current flows but the strength of the current flow is dependant on the gear ratio. Flight times should not be very good with that gearing and I am very surprised if the temps hold fine in summer heat. Again I may be missing something here.

There may be something I am missing here but we have a lot of experience with that motor and we have been running some pretty high head speeds on 18.46:1. I would not consider 17:1 in our application with 600mm blades.

We are talking about the same 1515-2Y 1100 KV motor right? Also on 10S? On 8S I could see that ratio working.

[misskimo]

hey , heres my take on the 1515 , try the CC85 , its like a small hopup part compared with the Kontronics esc , and also as what Clint is getting cooler motor temps by 20 degrees , more power , same flight time ,

[EricLarson]

Clint is not running the Neu and has a completely different flying style. He also stated in his earlier thread that he was getting less flight time but more power which makes complete sense.

I may still be missing something but the head speed would be min 2300 and probably much higher on 17:1?

Speed controls don't make power, they just regulate it. The CC uses fixed timing vs the variable timing model of the Jazz. I will drop the CC110 on my 600mm razor tomorrow with the Neu and report back. I have not tried it so I don't know but I will check it out.

Anyway like I said this thread is IMO. This is based off the testing we did with the team pilots and we have pretty solid data. I think combined we have well over 1500 flights... :)

[EricLarson]

One other thing to add here is that electric power and flight time is fairly easy to estimate. Power in electric is measured in watts and a .50 motor is pushing 1.9 HP. That is watts is just over 1400 watts. 1400 watts on 10S = 36 amps. So on 3700 cells at 80% you would see 5 min. Of course we did not consider spool up, hover, and unload time.

We are seeing well over 50 nitro power and I regularly see 2000 watts. The flight times I see are right in line with the data off the flight recorder and the basic math. I see an average draw of around 36-38 amps. When others fly my heli that does down to around 30 or so, but that is still 5.9 min of time.

Hover we see 20 amps or around 800 watts. That is 8.8 min flight time. Anyway just some things to add.

[epc2]

At 17:1 the H/S is Dialed down to 2150 using Gov. mode @80% with the Jazz.

epc2.

[heliflip]

Eric, down in Mulberry, the xero g was flying with jazz 55 ESC with 90% throttle curve in governor mode. I was not there but I was told that Matt Botos flew it hard for about 7 minutes with the 1515/2Y, 2- 5S1P 3700 packs.

We tached one here in Michigan this weekend and it was flying around at about 2170 head speed with a 18.89:1 gear ratio.

If you can give it a try on a Razor with the same gear ratio, ESC, and throttle settings, it would be interesting to see your results.

I am thinking about obtaining an ERazor. However, 6 1/2 - 7 minutes of flight time is definitely an advantage. Like I said in a previous post I would need hard evidence that the gear box the xero g is using is more efficient and is providing longer flight times.

I understand that flight times will vary depending on flying style and to really be accurate, you would have to have the same pilot fly the same routine on the two different machines (Xero g vs ERazor).

Thanks.

[EricLarson]

Cool good info. What does the Zero G weigh in at? Power is relative to the weight of course. It just takes "X" amount of power to do a job. I know Clint see's those types of times regularly but H.C., Bert, and Myself do not. I know it is possible but most times when I actually time flight they are significantly less.

I ONLY count time in the air under power. I DO NOT count spool up or auto's. Only time at full HeadSpeed in idle up.

Throw in an auto or two and you gain at least 1 min if not 2.

Wow on the HS as I know Bert and myself run about 80% gov at 18.46:1 and see 2180 on the head. I wonder why 17:1 does not = the 2370 that it works out to?

Anyway, like I said. The motor recommendations and statements are my own based on many hundreds of real flights by myself and other MA team members I trust a lot. I have no experience with the Zero G heli. Once several hundred people have kits we will see if the #'s are close :cool:

We also are seeing well over 200 cycles on the packs with all of the motors listed above!

[WayneBrown]

I've seen HC thermal out his own, and other's e-birds in about 3 minutes.
If HC can get 5-6 minutes out of it, that's where my money is going.

[heliflip]

Eric,

Xero G all up weight is 8.33 lbs.

What does your Razor weight?

Opps my mistake, they are at 2110 Rotor speed flying around and I believe 2150 at 0 pitch.

[sumonzu]

Hi Eric, I'm interested in a setup for moderate 3D/Sport and considering to use the Kontronik Tango motor. So what is the suggested gear ratio, blades and batteries? Thank you for any useful suggestion that you and others can give me!

[EricLarson]

Man I blanked on the ratio we are running the Tango. I will get Clint to post it up.

3700 and 4350 packs will work very well, not much difference except about 1.5 min more flight time on the 4350 packs. Both 10S. 600-620mm blades also are very good. You will be extremely happy with the Tango setup. It is one of the best choices for most users.

HeliFlip:

The Razor weighs in at 8lbs. Boy something just does not seem to add up to me, but I am just plain stating what we have seen. Even with straight .50 power averaging 1500 watts that should be 5 min. If they are flying with less than 1500 watts in the style of flying we are doing, I guess I am not sure how that is possible. Anyway I would always rather understate flight times than over state and the #'s I posted are pretty much worst case scenario.

[misskimo]

sumonzu
Clint is running the 45-08 geared 14.25 on 10s , 3850 TP 3700 evos , or 4600 tps or 4350 evos , I perfer TP my self, but either pack will do great ,
Blades the best , VBlades 600s , gyro , 601 or 611 is best , 401 will work ,
swash , 9252s ,
Wayne , HC couldnt thermal my Schulze out huh?

[Clintstone]

I am running everything as Tony said, there are many flying styles and reasons why everyone gets different times on their flights. If I fly hard with the 3700's I can fly hard for 6 min. with no trouble but everyone should fly responsibly as I would think HC or Eric would fly my Heli for 5 min safely and then I would check what I put back.........something else to consider I like to turn around 2000 rpms and I would think it is closer to 1980. On my Ion I am flying 1800,1900 and 2100 and I can get 5 to 7 min on 4350's. % min. if I am hammering the heli but for an example if I fly easy I can limit to 2500mh for 5 min or if I am flying aggressive I can burn 3400mh in the same time. The same heli on a different gear ratio with less power I have flown 8 min. It is all relative to how you fly and how it is setup.

Headspeed can really affect your flight times and performance so everyone should setup the heli for their own styl and needs.

[eheliflyer]

To all of the MA pilots what is the consensus of the most powerful set up on 10S.
I will be using the Jazz 55-10-32,Medusa 3.5A 6V BEC, 2 FP EVO 5S 3700mah.
I need to figure which powerplant I need so that I can order the right gear ratio. I just want ballistic power and I don't mind only getting 4-5 min of flight time, so flight times are of no concern to me. I am just the typical man who wants more power than what is really needed. :twisted: Thanks to all who reply.

[misskimo]

sounds like you need what Eric posted up above , 1515

[eheliflyer]

Looks like I need to hunt down the Neu motor then. :D

[misskimo]

or 12s and a 45-06 , but that in question of how long will it last , since its not tested with 300 or so flights , but what I got on temps were telling me that its fine , puts out just as much snort as the 1515, TP 12 3850s fit fine, 2 6s3700s might not

[j.p.75]

when you use Medusa BEC 3,5A 6v, do you can connect the 601 or 611 gyro with 6V without problem???