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OICU812
08-01-2010, 11:12 PM
Ok fellas seems there are some hardcores here no worries didn't mean to offend.

But, I say 110 as in the very last two weeks I've seen (3) CC85HV fail on Logo 600s, so I guess this primes me to say some overhead like the 110... and I don't live in the hottest environment either. CC BEC Pro well, cruise all the boards I do there are posts litterally daily of them failing on HV systems, don't believe it take a look around.

Whether you believe it or not I don't dis the CC stuff cause I'm a Kontronik guy this is not the case, I say this as I myself went through MANY CC escs and BECs over the last few years, I goto a fair bit of funflies due to having such a short season and I see this stuff with my own eyes. I have yet to have (1) Kontronik go into flames in the air or fail on me in the air not one. I have however had several I mean SEVERAL CC stuff fail.

So do what you like, think what you like I really don't care about that I do care about people pissing their money away on stuff that fails and the comment "good customer service" comes up, that's just not enough for me. I been running the Kony stuff for quite sometime, I didn't rep up then start running anything I represent or support, I flew it all prior to any gig like that. I will in any case stand up for the customer on any product in which I am involved in, yes there have been some Kony issues to there is no doubt, BUT they are not costing people their entire investments either.

Datalogging, have any of you ever compared the datalogging of a CC esc to that of say a Hyperion E- Meter, I have and the accuracy differences would make you pretty suprised actually, far in favour of the Hyperion..


Fire...

Heres an example just today ...
http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t600981p1/

Now search that entire forum for example or here for Kontronik fires in flight, can't find one post..... can find many by searching CC fire...

Fly buy what you want .....

OICU812
08-01-2010, 11:19 PM
BTW the % on the CC Pro, you're right my apologies its not an actual % but I do read this and 5 forums daily and I cruise the certain forums looking for things, I guess lets say to be fair between one of those 5 forums every second day I read of either the esc or the bec failure, that is honest truth and I think anyone else who criuses other boards can say that to....

Nuff of that, I for one can agree and will say CCs customer service is good yes. I can also say they are good about replacing their stuff. Problem I have at moment is the fact that they have been saying their governor is top notch for years, it still is not. There are still these fire issues as well, the QC is and should be top priority IMO.

Now is their improvement in many ways to be made in Kontronik? Absolutely and it will happen and I am confident of it.
I would like to see online updating, YES it is coming, see the comments on the Kobys and I know it is only a matter of time to see that elsewhere in other escs. Do I wish there was more direct replacement updating for now say in USA? Well yes but how logical is that, not sure CC is about only one made in USA anymore anyhow and the world is big and peeps all over fly RC... Would I like to see PC adjustments for esc? Well thing is you only need to do a mode 1 and 4 or 11 and it's done governor and esc works perfect no need really to expand or do anything else there is no tweaking....



Sorry if I offended anyone, I sincerely didn't mean to but anyone who has or will meet me knows I am just a straight shooter, perhaps that's not always a good thing..:dontknow

s0laris
08-02-2010, 01:06 AM
Hey Shawn.. Might see you in Edmonton September fun fly.

The CC Governor plain sucks.. It sucks. Did I mention it sucks ??

Doing ANY 3d piro manouvers just is no fun with it.

I run flat 100% on my cc's and am happy with it.

As for CC failure. The only one I had fail was a Ice 100 that was apparently a pre production beta.

I firmly believe a lot of flames occur from negligence or just expecting too much out of the electronics.

My question is WHY is a kontronics better ? It is considerably more money. Dymtry explained it last time and I forgot. He mentioned the kontronics are more efficienct some how dealing with the motor, but other say thats hog wash as the motors dont "interact" like that.

perfeet
08-02-2010, 04:24 AM
OICU812 have some good points.

I had Castle (and several other ESCs) before. My Castle did not fail but the governor was not very good. One Scorpion ESC and one Align ESC have failed during flight, resulting in a crash.

After listening to a couple friends bragging about Kontronik every time I talked to them, I decided to try a Kontronik Jazz ESC on my Trex 500 (now sold).

I was so happy with the ESC, that I decided to Kontronik on all my stuff. Now I have 3 Kontronik ESC.



Jive 80hv: Logo 600se
Jazz 80: Pz Habu EDF
Jazz 55: Trex 450 Pro (building project)

You pay a premium for a Kontronik. No doubt about it. But you get something that is working well and with good build quality. I even have several plank-friends that only uses Kontronik. That surprised me a little at first...

Buying premium lipos instead off e.g Hobbycity is MUCH more expensive, than the price difference on a CC and Kontronik.

BUT: Online firmware updates and logging is something I would like to have on my ESCs. Kudos to Castle on that point :thumbup:

worldofmaya
08-02-2010, 05:26 AM
I too see the main strength in Kontronik's motor management (their auto-timing). If you compare between a low-cost Esc and a Kontronik you'll find that the motor runs much smoother. I had that when exchanging a Gaui Esc against a Jazz 80. Motor run much smoother and less heat.
The difference between Kontronik auto-timing and CC's settings is much less noticeable. But it's there. The main difference here is the governor. CC has a pretty soft governor whereas Kontronik has a pretty hard governor. The difference when using Lipos isn't that great if you got it set right on a CC. But if you use A123 like I do than you'll notice that Kontronik is much more demanding. You'll see if you log voltage / current / rpm that a Kontronik holds headspeed a little bit longer but because of the weaker performance of A123 the drop when it happens is much harder than with a CC. Another bad result of this behavior is that you notice the voltage-drop at the end of a A123-flight much later than with a CC. If you like this behavior, the Kontronik is a great thing...
About Esc's failure... if you're in an area where Kontronik is much more wide-spread than you would know much more cases. There's everything from shut-downs to not initialize after the second (...) battery. One thing I have to note about the Jive is that it has much more failure preventive functions than any other Esc.
Not being able to repair it because of it's housing, price and support outside of Germany / Europe is of course not a big plus. But at least they're working on the US support from what I've heard.
-Klaus

mmazurek
08-02-2010, 08:02 AM
I don't get offended at all. And I'm not a hard-core Castle guy. I use both.

I DO wonder why the two are pitted against each other when the price difference is quite substantial. I expect and DEMAND the Jive to be better than the Castle 80HV. I payed for that.

I'd be a great big jerk if I kept badgering my friends and relative to beg, borrow, are steal to trade their current car in to get a BMW cuz it drives that much better.

(ironic note: 50% of the BMW's I've owned needed major engine or transmission work)


Once again, is it really surprising that a Hyperion E-Meter would be more accurate than the Castle logging? Same cost/performance issue.

jvthert
08-03-2010, 01:29 PM
I completely agree with all that! What sparks the discussion is the fact that Castle lovers keep comparing their equiptment to Kontronik. However there is no comparison! And you are darn right that the price difference makes my not so modest demands even higher for Kontronik. And they deliver :Bang

Mystic3D
08-04-2010, 03:34 PM
It's called whatever I have is the best syndrom and it effects us all.

Kudo's to Castle for making a good ESC for the masses affordable.
Kudo's to Kontronik for making a premium ESC.

I doubt those who own a Kontronik bought it first. I know I went through a few brands before I tried Kontronik. Then i went back and tried a CC80HV and Ice 50 just casue i heard so many good things. Then guess what, sold it and back to Kontronic.

I have a Ice 50 Lite up for sale...

demosa
08-05-2010, 04:44 PM
I have owned several Jazz controllers and Kora motors. I love Kontronik products !

However, you want to be aware of the fact that Kontronik has terrible product support (extremely slow response if any) and a completely rediculous requirement for service (return to Germany). I just bought a brand new Jive 100LV and it was defective out-of-the-box. The best I can get is "pay shipping and send it to Germany for repair". Product and product support go hand in hand. This is not the kind of support I expect from a top-dollar product...

Mystic3D
08-05-2010, 04:49 PM
Yes if you bought it from US Distributor Readyheli then they would have swapped no questions asked. I made that mistake before...

demosa
08-05-2010, 04:54 PM
No not true. I DID buy from Ready Heli and they are the ones that are giving me the "ship to Germany for repair" story. Kontronik Germany does not even have the curtesy of replying to my support questions.

Mystic3D
08-05-2010, 04:58 PM
Wow!. That was not my experience. That stinks..

demosa
08-05-2010, 05:09 PM
Yes, I find it interesting that Ernie at Ready Heli never gave me the option of returning the defective ESC for a replacement... Are you saying that they did this for you ?

I was not angry at ReadyHeli since I thought that as a dealer they are only able to carry the policy of the manufacturer. But if you are saying that they did this for you, then I think I have good reasons to be angry at them as well... And coming to think of it, Ready Heli should be standing behind their customers no matter what the manufacturer policies are...

so there, now I'm unhappy with both ReadyHeli and Kontronik.

Mystic3D
08-05-2010, 05:22 PM
I don't know what their "Official Policy is" so I can not speak to that. and I am not going to get into it on a public forum. I like Readyheli, they have always come through for me.

HeathH
08-05-2010, 05:24 PM
I had a dumb out moment and shorted an 80hv out. Sent it back to kontronik usa and they replaced at 30% the original price for me. I thought that was a great deal considering that I fried it and it was in no way kontronik's fault.

Mystic3D
08-05-2010, 11:53 PM
[QUOTE=demosa;2246101]Yes, I find it interesting that Ernie at Ready Heli never gave me the option of returning the defective ESC for a replacement... Are you saying that they did this for you ?

demosa,

Suggest you call Readyheli and talk to Bryan. Tell him of your frustration and ask what he can do. Jon and Jen are the owners and am sure they would rather resolve before it becomes an issue here.

worldofmaya
08-05-2010, 11:59 PM
Yes, I find it interesting that Ernie at Ready Heli never gave me the option of returning the defective ESC for a replacement... Are you saying that they did this for you ?
http://www.kontronikusa.com/contact.html

flymustangs
08-09-2010, 11:31 AM
I've got a few flights with the Jive now. I would say it definitely holds the head speed better. With the Castle you could hear a little bit of fluctuation in the hard maneuvers. With the Jive I don't hear that, just more blade noise as they take a bigger bite.

I did have some problems getting the throttle endpoints set right, but that wasn't the Jive's fault. Some argue that this isn't even necessary, but I did it anyway.

I'm still not sure the Jive is worth "twice" the Castle setup, but it was enough of an improvement not to switch back. :) I've already got the Castle/Pro BEC sold.

I plan on a Logo 700 when they're ready and will most likely go with Kontronik just for piece of mind.

SoupZ
08-16-2010, 10:50 AM
The good points of both CC & Kontronik add together would = MIKADO:cheers
Really high quality & User friendly products + Outta the world customer service/support = MIKADO:Bang
But too bad they dont hav ESCs & Motors, i tink it'll b as good & reliable like their Logos & Vbar :thumbup:

xatled99
10-01-2010, 01:30 PM
Do you have before and after eagle tree graphs?

I've got a few flights with the Jive now. I would say it definitely holds the head speed better. With the Castle you could hear a little bit of fluctuation in the hard maneuvers. With the Jive I don't hear that, just more blade noise as they take a bigger bite.

flymustangs
10-01-2010, 02:44 PM
No I don't. I have some data from the built-in logger on the Castle, but nothing from the Jive. I went ahead and wired it with the series connectors on the Jive itself so hooking up an Eagletree would be a little combersome.

I think the Jive does hold the head speed better and is definitely easier to program, but I don't think the debate is finished. :)

I'm gathering parts to build a second Logo 600 that will run on 12S. At this point, I plan on using a Castle so I can take advantage of the integrated governor on the vbar when that becomes available. I don't plan on using Castle's BEC, though.

eggBeater1965
11-05-2010, 04:55 PM
I had some recent discussions about which is the best heli, and which is the best transmitter and as with this discussion I pointed out that it comes down to what you can live with and without. Each ESC as with each transmitter come with their own set of issues. :shock:

Some of the issues are operator error (wrong amps for the setup, wired wrong, etc), some are manufacturer issues, some are design and some are functionality not complete due to production and marketing dead lines.

I have spent many hours trying to argue with some experienced RC guys that a certain amp in a certain heli isn’t going to work. Only to watch them burn up the ESC in flight and then say “Man, did you see that? It burn up for no reason.” 50amp on a 100 amp application, DUH! I am not saying this is the cause of every burn up, but I am saying it does happen (a lot). :arggg:

I am also saying that, in my experience there are fewer people that actually know what their current draw actually is, and fewer still have the equipment to measure that current in the air. Sure they are putting data logging in the ESC and it’s great, but how many flights can you store? Eagletree can store 20 flights. I am not sure the average Joe cares. ;)

There are a good many of us that spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. Running the calculations, I have an excel spread sheet that helps me analyze setups. Just to make sure everything is just right. I have never burnt up a CC ESC (knock on wood), but I always over amp my setup. I have seen tons of guys blow up theirs’ and some have a ton of experience in RC because they choose the wrong amp for the setup most of the time.

Lets face it, we are working in an area that demands a lot of attention to detail. One mistake could cost you your heli. Buy what make you sleep better at night, but do not be fooled into thinking that you bought an ESC because you did not want to risk crashing. Name your ESC and I will show you forum inputs that guys say “I just pulled it out of the package and it blew up.” Ok, maybe not that bad but the point is, I can find issues with everything. The all mighty internet which has brought porn to the average house hold for free has also made the average Joe an author. So choose who to listen to wisely. :hug:

So is one better than the other? I am sure one is based on someone’s criteria but like the orginal post says, show me the data and publish the results and tests. What the control and applications used in. WARNING I am an engineer by profession and a RC addict by choice.

Which do I like? The one with the pretty lights. :lol:

Thunder Fighter
11-06-2010, 10:15 AM
I had a CC110HV die on me last night while I was finalizing the setup. It was second hand so I can't be certain of how it was treated before it came to me so I am not blaming Castle at all. In fact I think the poor soldering the previous owner had done on both the battery connections and the bullets to the motor was probably a major contributor.

I will probably replace it with a ICE 80 HV or maybe the ICE 120 HV depending on which I can find at short notice while I send it in for repair.

//Dennis.

s0laris
11-06-2010, 11:00 AM
Some people insist the govenor on the kontronics is fantastic compared to cc.

OverTemp
11-06-2010, 12:32 PM
Flew both. JIVE gets you superior power due to the governing. JIVE runs the motor 20F cooler. JIVE has an awesome BEC.

I cant find a single thing the Castle does better since I don't use logging... I just fly proven setups.