Get rich doing AP ?

[probe3]

These guys have...

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/mag/article.pl?article_id=26953&postDate=2006-12-02

"Jeff Jones and Mark Segal play with toys. They also pulled in $800,000 in revenue last year."

:shock:

[Cryofix]

TOOO SWEET!

[sky high]

That is definitely very cool and there's no doubt the gear is expensive and the pilot is very skilled. But, whoever pays $20K-$30K for a few panaramics deserves to get gouged like that! :FThat That is the most ridiculous cost for AP I have ever heard of, especially RC AP! If they can pull it off, more power to them.

"... SkyPan is the only U.S. company that uses radio-controlled helicopters, Mr. Segal says."

If those guys think they are the only one's like they stated, they are in for a real shock! :roll: :bs

[askman]

there has been good money on balcony/tower shots. think of it this way, the realestate company has invest tens of millions on highrise condo. what is 20-30k for marketting when they have large advertising budget. the key is making the connection and having the reputation that produce result. I've heard about this before. 5k is typical for even cheaper towershots.

[sky high]

Like I stated they are skilled, the gear is expensive and there's no doubt about what they're doing as being a valuable marketing tool for their clients. But, they are servicing people that have more money than sense and have not shopped around and compared rates. :roll: That's why they deserve what they get by being raked over the coles. $5K is alot different than $20-$30K for AP, especially RC. The rate usually reflects the platform and you could buy a real helo charging those kinds of rates. The biggest mistake these two have made is running their mouths about it and even worse, mentioning their revenue figures. Then to claim that they are the only ones doing it. :roll:

[AZ ChopperCam]

whoever pays $20K-$30K for a few panaramics deserves to get gouged like that!

make sure you consider the fact that the jobs these guys are doing require flying as high as 50 stories taking shots about every 20 feet along the way and also taking photos at different headings. A VERY time consuming and risky endeavor worth every penny of $20K.

[Tabbytabb]

I suppose I should email them so they will know they arent the only ones doing it

:D


Tabb

[sky high]

Hello Dennis. That's your opinion about its worth being justified and it's mine that they are really getting one over on their clients compared to the use of a full size helo that takes much more to own and operate. I made sure to look at the date of that article before commenting to ensure it wasn't old and they weren't true pioneers of that technology or service. So, for it to be so current and for them to make that statement is just ridiculous and ignorant, if not arrogant.

You and I seem to be in the same production industry so I'm sure you are used to seeing big budgets and obscene amounts of money being spent well and not so well, I sure have. Like you, I charge premium rates for my production services and gear rentals from the remote truck, jib, steadicam, post-production, etc, and now my helo for aerial AP. I tell you right now, the RC helo is a hard sell to these network level production companies at less than $3000 per day. Believe me, these folks know where their money is going!

Anyway, from what I saw, they were on the rooftops of surrounding buildings and even if they were flying from the ground they could be expert pilots, using a Carvec system, etc.. I've seen your work and it's very well done. So, why aren't you making $30K-$60K per shoot? It's probably because of your market size and your clients that are a bit more aware of what their money is being spent on.

[sky high]

I suppose I should email them so they will know they arent the only ones doing it.
Go gettem boy! Maybe you'll be lucky and they will let you work for them. :mrgreen:

[GJestico]

Important rule of business : "Charge what the market will bear".
How do you think Gates made his millions.
Why does a gallon of gas cost so much ? same reason a dog licks his........

Greg

[sky high]

Important rule of business : "Charge what the market will bear".
Or charge those that don't know any better. Yes, that can be done but when someone wises up they will feel taken advantage of. If that rate was an industry standard it would be justifiable. We are talking about a remote controlled helicopter that takes pictures. That is not unique these days. I think it's clear that those that pay that much for that service just don't know any better. $30K-$60K for that is what some make in a year at a regular job. Not that that matters but it puts it in perspective as being way overpriced for what it is.

[MLaBoyteaux]

I don't believe a full scale could get the clearance to fly the jobs these guys are doing. One, you'd need a way to mount the camera under the full scale (or were you thinking they could just piro the JetRanger) and hover it steady at each altitude in the middle of downtown.

Sky high, what would you consider a fair rate for what they're doing? If you think their rate is too high, what do you consider it to be worth? What would you do it for? Can the Draganflyer go that high?

I say more power to 'em, knowing what they charge gives me a target!

[dreslism]

I suppose I should email them so they will know they arent the only ones doing it.
Go gettem boy! Maybe you'll be lucky and they will let you work for them. :mrgreen:

Or maybe THEY will be lucky and get to work for Tabb. I hear he lets his employees wear sandles to work. :mrgreen:

[Xcellgasman101]

Thats just it,, You can't get the pic's any other way, than with a RC heli,, I don't see a problem with them charge'n what they are,, If there client wants to pay that for a job, POWER TO THEM,,,, Right now I would be happy to make that in a year, but I have no problem hoping that someday, I could make that in a day or two.. Way to go Jeff,, He is a really nice guy, I have talked to him thru pm's on RR,, Very standup guy,, Wish them well,,,, XGM

[Cryofix]

Important rule of business : "Charge what the market will bear".
Or charge those that don't know any better. Yes, that can be done but when someone wises up they will feel taken advantage of. If that rate was an industry standard it would be justfiable. We are talking about a remote controlled helicopter that takes pictures. That is not unique these days. I think it's clear that those that pay that much for that service just don't know any better. $30K-$60K for that is what some make in a year at a regular job. Not that that matters but it puts it in perspective as being way overpriced for what it is.


Hmmm let me see... Hi rise condos in a major city with 90 floors, for argument sake 4 condos per floor so say 90 x 4 = 360 available units for sell, divide 60,000 by 360 unit and you get a whopping $166.00 per unit sold. I really dont think thats going to make a difference when they come out with 360 condos priced at an average of 1,500,166.00 each they are making making $540,000,000.00 and not even to mention an ariel shot like that would probably boost top floor sales to the point they could tack on another $500,000 to the price and people would still buy it. Again the math on say the top 10 floors = 40 condos x an additional 100,000 askin price becasue of the view makes you an additional 4 million just for some photos, 60,000 - 4,000,000 = 3,940,000

Knowing these numbers who is ripping who off?

[askman]

the contractors won't be spending the money, if they did not think it was a good deal. :)

[AZ ChopperCam]

sky high, you're really coming across as sounding like the companies that hire these guys are dumber than rocks for "paying that much"

I'm sorry but no company who builds multi-multi million dollar hi-rises is lacking business sense or will just pay whatever. These companies do thier homework, they get bids, they research. No financial decisions are made without the proper people knowing about it.

Cryo's math looks about right and IMO the price point is pretty much where it ought to be.

What do you think the job is worth?

[ullr]

Like I stated they are skilled, the gear is expensive and there's no doubt about what they're doing as being a valuable marketing tool for their clients. But, they are servicing people that have more money than sense and have not shopped around and compared rates. :roll: That's why they deserve what they get by being raked over the coles. $5K is alot different than $20-$30K for AP, especially RC. The rate usually reflects the platform and you could buy a real helo charging those kinds of rates. The biggest mistake these two have made is running their mouths about it and even worse, mentioning their revenue figures. Then to claim that they are the only ones doing it. :roll:

They are doing nothing wrong. They are highly skilled and providing a valuable service.

Do you have any idea what a real pro photographer makes for a daily rate on a commercial shoot? It's not chump change.

This is a profession, not a hobby. And they are being paid accordingly.

[sky high]

Okay, look what you made me do! :soapbox

I want you all to know that I lost $100,000 today because of taking the time out of my busy schedule to answer all of your comments. :mrgreen:


I don't believe a full scale could get the clearance to fly the jobs these guys are doing.
Yes, I read in the article but didn't mention that one of the reasons a full size is not used is because of the permits required. If you will go back and read what I said, you will see that my reference to a real helo was that you could probably put a downpayment on a real one or even buy one with the revenues they are making.



Sky high, what would you consider a fair rate for what they're doing? If you think their rate is too high, what do you consider it to be worth? What would you do it for? Can the Draganflyer go that high?

I say more power to 'em, knowing what they charge gives me a target!
LIKE I SAID in my original post, it doesn't matter if they charge $1 million per day "if they can pull if off, more power to them." You are just repeating what I said as if I hadn't said it. The article mentioned that the rates varied depending on the project with some of the cost including travel and multiple days. Multiple days is where the total could be significantly increased. At first glance, I think those rates appear to be for a day's work but are probably over a few days which would make more sense. Considering what I said about industry standards and rates that I have seen for similar applications like for feature films (35mm), commercials, etc. using RC helos, I would say around $5K-$8K per day. Using the latter figure, a 5 day shoot would yield at least a $25K shoot.



Can the Draganflyer go that high?
LIKE I SAID, AGAIN! "I'm sure their gear is expensive and they are very skilled" .... I never said their platform wasn't worthy and as for the DF being able to fly that high. Well, of course it can fly that high and even higher than those buildings. It will fly as high and far as any other stock RC aircraft. But, you couldn't even see it from the ground, it wouldn't be stable and it couldn't hold that gear. So, what kind of a question is that anyway? What relevance does that have in this discussion? I know what the advantages and limitations of my helo are and I have my own target clients for it. That was an absolutely ridiculous question to ask and comparison to make. :roll:



If there client wants to pay that for a job, POWER TO THEM ...
Thanks for restating what I said.... AGAIN! As if I never said it. :roll:



Way to go Jeff,, He is a really nice guy, I have talked to him thru pm's on RR,, Very standup guy,, Wish them well,,,, XGM
Who said he wasn't? His rates are his rates. If someone wants to pay them, fine!

Cryofix,

So Cryofix, if Donald Trump goes into Walmart to by a pack of gum, should he pay more than anyone else just because he is a trillionaire? A rate is a rate and shouldn't be scaled to what each client's worth is or is projected to be. There's really no such thing as a rip off as far as being overcharged is concerned because all someone has to do is make the effort to check around. If they don't, then they have no one to blame but themselves for being charged more than they really should have been.



the contractors won't be spending the money, if they did not think it was a good deal.
That's right! IF they know what a good deal is.



I'm sorry but no company who builds multi-multi million dollar hi-rises is lacking business sense or will just pay whatever. These companies do thier homework, they get bids, they research. No financial decisions are made without the proper people knowing about it....
What a naive statement! Oh yes they will and they do! I am not saying that these particular companies didn't compare because I truly don't know if they did or not. I have, however, dealt with some folks in project management and payroll departments that are handed a project and told here's the budget, just get it done! And they do! Not knowing the first thing about what they are being charged for. There are those service providers out there that will take full advantage of that knowledge too.

I myself have been told by someone who had a project passed off to them to get a corporate video produced and had no idea what was involved. They said here's the deal, I have this much money and I was just told to get it done.

A network production company that I worked for that produces shows you all probably watch every day that paid someone twice, TWICE!, the amount that was invoiced. It wasn't just a few hundred either, it was thousands! He called them and told them about it and she said, no, that's right, according to what I see, that's what your supposed to get. So he figured he did his part and just kept it. Well, I bet someone's head rolled when the accountants balanced the books!

A while back, I was paid in advance and in FULL to produce a corporate video for a well known worldwide food manufacturer. He said, here's $5K for this project. I said but it will only cost $2500-$3000. He said well, we'll just put the rest toward another project later on but just take this now because that's what they're giving us for this project. This was around Christmas and he jokingly said, consider it an early Christmas present. We produced the first video and I haven't heard a word about the balance or the next project since then. I'm an honest person and I will produce another project for them that fits the balance if/when he calls for it, no matter how long ago it was.

My last example was when I was bidding on a project and the person in charge of managing it TOLD ME WHAT THE BUDGET WAS! You don't tell the bidders what the budget is! Do you see now what is in charge of tens of thousands of dollars at any given time? Do you need any more examples? Uh, how about the U.S. Government? That's a whole other discussion.

If I found that someone had spent my money on something that was not researched and compared adequately, depending on how much and the circumstances, they would be severely reprimanded or released.



They are doing nothing wrong. They are highly skilled and providing a valuable service.
Did you NOT read anything that I wrote, even after quoting me? :roll:

I think I said there's no doubt that they are skilled and that is a valuable marketing tool .....



Do you have any idea what a real pro photographer makes for a daily rate on a commercial shoot? It's not chump change.
You obviously didn't read the description of the production services and gear that I offer and the premium rates that I charge, which are industry standards by the way. Your right, WE don't make chump change. But I'm a DP/Camera Operator for video (mostly video) and motion pictures not still photography so I don't know their typical rates. I work on multi-million dollar network shows and have worked on two feature films. So yeah, I think I know what it's like to see tens if not hundreds of thousands spent each day as I ALSO stated above about seeing obscene amounts of money being spent wisely and frivolously.



This is a profession, not a hobby. And they are being paid accordingly.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. And all this time I thought what I was doing was a hobby. :roll: As far as them being paid accordingly, that's your opinion.

[AZ ChopperCam]

I was paid in advance and in FULL to produce a corporate video for a well known worldwide food manufacturer. He said, here's $5K for this project. I said but it will only cost $2500-$3000. He said well, we'll just put it toward another project later on but just take this because that's what they're giving us for this project. This was around Christmas and he jokingly said, consider it an early Christmas present.

So you've worked for financially stupid clients too huh?

[MLaBoyteaux]

Dude, you come across like you got issues.

It's a difference of opinion. I like mine. As for yours.........

It sounds like your angry about how much money they're making?

You still didn't answer the question, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT'S WORTH?

[sky high]

So you've worked for financially stupid clients too huh?
Yep! :mrgreen:

[sky high]

Dude, you come across like you got issues.

It's a difference of opinion. I like mine. As for yours.........

It sounds like your angry about how much money they're making?

You still didn't answer the question, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT'S WORTH?
Issues? You have personalized it now by making that statement. But I'm not getting into that. No, I think all I did was answer comments clearly and consicely with solid references to support my claims. I'm not angry at them at all. LIKE I SAID, if they can pull it off more power to them. I have to hire crews and rent expensive gear myself and I will pay alot for quality because that's what I know that I'll be getting. But there is limit to what someone can or will pay, quality or not, and everybody has one.

My issues, as you say, come from frustration with having to demonstate how people don't read what I say and then erroneously comment on it, like you just did. If you read what I said I think I answered the question quite clearly. I would think $5k-$8K per day would be the rate as compared to others that provide much more complicated flight sequences for main stream films and commercials. But, it doesn't matter what I think. I have had people that are not familiar with industry rates to tell me that I am too expensive. I just love it when they call the others with the same experience and gear and the same if not higher rates. We have to fight for our rates all the time because there are those out there that will undercut just to get the job and it's just killing the industry. I didn't make the rates I charge, the industry did. I worked for far less before building a resume to justify my current rates. I also learned along time ago not to hold it against those that truly do not know what the industry rates are. As for the one's that do and are obviously trying to cheap out ....

[MLaBoyteaux]

The reason I mention the Draganflyer, is, that's the only thing you've posted. You're website is kinda empty.

How much do you normally charge for your aerial service?

[sky high]

The reason I mention the Draganflyer, is, that's the only thing you've posted. You're website is kinda empty.
Well, you have to admit that being asked that among the other discussion sounded like an attack on the DF as if I was daring to compare it to their 90 size. That's how I perceived it.

All I have is the DF right now but I also want a Bergen turbine reeeal bad. :mrgreen: It just wouldn't be safe or practical to use a 90 size helo on the shows I am pitching the DF platform to.

The SkyLink page is just something for contact information and for general commercial use. I have private passworded pages for clients. I also have another AP site with a different domain name specifically for the production industry. It has AP images and video content as well as private passworded pages.

Then I have my main production site which is www.jefcommunications.com It is mainly for typical video production services. The video on this site is not available right now because I recently upgraded to a larger server and haven't migrated all of that video to it yet.