ap2000 and 90 ccpm

[cainebean]

If you do the Titan 90 degree ccpm, how do you put that in the Ap2000? Maybe I'm not seeing this.

Caine

[dreslism]

Hmmm. Have not done it myself yet, but it looks like the only choice you have is S-1 that puts things at 90, but may require some reversing of servos in the ap2000 to get it to work.

Looks like in the ap2000 manual if you rotated the S-1 image -90, then the layout would match what you have in Gary's 90 ccpm.

Hopefully Gary has done it already since he created the 90 ccpm your using and will chime in.

Did you try the S1 setting yet and do the following from the manual?

Turn the transmitter’s CCPM mixing off.
3. Set the swashplate type on the AP-2000i
4. Move the collective pitch stick up/down and reverse servos as needed on the AP-2000i so that the swash travels up/down while remaining flat.
5. If the aileron, elevator or pitch direction need reversing, do this at the
transmitter.

[MarkWebber]

90 degree CCPM as in 4 servo or 2 servo? I'm not familiar with the swash setup that Gary has.

[GGoodrum]

It is the same as the new TT electrics. one forward servo for elevator and two aileron servos, so it is three servos, just like a120 degrees setup.

http://www.tppacks.com/photos/eTitan-eCCPM-06.jpg

I'm guessing the 4-servo mode would work, but without the 2nd elevator servo is all.

-- Gary

[GGoodrum]

Actually, I haven't put the AP-2000I on my eTitan setup yet, as I ended up building up a 2nd one that I'm dedicating to AP/AV, and using with the new AskmanAP PanCam mount. I will hopefully get to this in the next day, or so. I lost yesterday cleaning up the Turkish "delight" mess :D

-- Gary

[cainebean]

I did try S1 and it didn't work. I was just hoping someone had done this already. I'm going to check my wires and make sure I didn't do anything wrong and go fom there.

Caine

[GGoodrum]

Nope, S1 is wrong. I had a look at the manual. S1 is for a mechanical CCPM setup, with a separate pitch servo. What you need to use is the S4 setting. Connect the elevator servo to output 1, the starboard side (the right side, looking from the tail...) aileron servo to output 2 and the port side aileron servo to output 4. Leave output 3 disconnected. This should work without having to reverse the elevator servo channel.

-- Gary

[dreslism]

Nope, S1 is wrong. I had a look at the manual. S1 is for a mechanical CCPM setup, with a separate pitch servo. What you need to use is the S4 setting. Connect the elevator servo to output 1, the starboard side (the right side, looking from the tail...) aileron servo to output 2 and the port side aileron servo to output 4. Leave output 3 disconnected. This should work without having to reverse the elevator servo channel.

-- Gary

I would think that in this config that you would lose the ability to put your gyro on the ap2000i to free up a channel. Doing the above, the ap2000i would still be using output 3 so you could not put your gyro gain on that????

Sounds like the real answer is that it is not officially supported in the ap2000i as of now. The doc's say to contact spartan if they don't support your swashtype. If angelos added support for this type, then your would only use outputs 1,2,3 and have output 4 free again to use for your gyro gain.

[GGoodrum]

Good point, Scott, I hadn't though of that. Maybe if Angelos is "listening", we can get another mode added? :D:D

-- Gary

[cainebean]

I tried S4 and couldn't get it to work. Maybe Mark or Angelos is listening. I guess I'll just have to hold out until we get an answer. Sucks though because I was getting spoiled very fast with the Ap2000.

Caine

[GGoodrum]

What are the symptoms?

[MarkWebber]

I can't discern from the pic Gary posted the mechanics of that swashplate.

Which swash type is used in your TX to mix this swashplate configuration? If your TX can handle this one, I would think there is an option which would work with the AP2000i. I'm sure there would be some servo reversing to get it right but it should work. I just haven't found a site that shows the both sides of the heli so I could make a more accurate suggestion.

I'll keep looking, however.

[GGoodrum]

It is a straight 90-degree eCCPM setup. I haven't found a radio that doesn't have this mode. There is one elevator and two ailleron servos, just like a 120-degree setup, but the two aileron points are at 90-degrees not 120.

The swashplate is the stock 90-degree unit. It is also the same one used on the TT e550/620.

-- Gary

[Angelos]

The S-4 setting should work for the 3 servo 90 deg CCPM. Leave the servo 3 output unconnected. Do the CCPM setup methodically as described in the user guide and it will work.

-Angelos

[MarkWebber]

I follow you now. Like a 4 servo swashplate without one servo. How does it not pitch the swashplate with no servo operating the rear portion when inputting collective?

[GGoodrum]

I follow you now. Like a 4 servo swashplate without one servo. How does it not pitch the swashplate with no servo operating the rear portion when inputting collective?

All three servos move for collective changes, just like the 120-degree setup. The balls are just at the 90 degree point instead of at 120 degrees. One "advantage" of using this setup is that for elevator only changes, the two aileron servos don't move, so less interaction, in theory. The 120 degree layout moves all the servos for pretty much any change, which is supposed to distribute the load. In theory that would be a good thing, but most radios output servo commands serially, so there is always going to be a bit of interaction. With blazing fast digital servos that have 200 oz/in torque ratings, there's no real need to "share the load" as much as there used to be.

Angelos, we still need a new swash option for this because, as Scott points out, many of us are using that 4th servo output for the tail gyro gain.

-- Gary

[MLaBoyteaux]

Couldn't you use the servo 3 output for the gyro gain? Just set the trim setting for servo 3 to something like 9% or so since it's not going to be used?

[cainebean]

So I think Mark Webber has some kind of magic in his voice or something because everything is working right now. S1 in radio, S4 on the Ap2000. We tried switching servo 3 to 4 and it was a no go. Switched it back and it was a no go. I cycled the power and everything works right now with S1 and S4. Strange!

I agree with Scott and Gary though, we do need a 3 servo 90 degree CCPM so we can use channel 3 if needed. I'm sure it will happen eventually.

I want to say thanks to Gary, Angelos, Mark, and Askman for their customer support. You guys really make life so much easier when a problem comes up.

Caine

[dreslism]

Couldn't you use the servo 3 output for the gyro gain? Just set the trim setting for servo 3 to something like 9% or so since it's not going to be used?

I think no. The ap2000 swash setting is The S-4 setting, so it thinks there are 4 servos and is mixing outputs for servo out 1-4, even though you would have nothing plugged into servo out 3, it is still mixing and sending output to it.

I think if you plugged your gyro gain into servo out 3 in this config, it would be going nuts, and you would NOT be happy. :shock:

[MLaBoyteaux]

Dooooh!

I'm still thinking 3 servo swashplate.......

You're correct, that would be bad!

[cainebean]

Stupid question but I have to ask... My bottom was like -15 center 0 and top 15 with this setup. Pitch Curve. I'm a center stick flyer. Futaba as well.

Would it be better to move the endpoints down then go into the curve and fine tune or just use the curve high low % and bring my points down.

My %'s were like 57% on bottom and 79% on top. Nice and flat but I just thought I'd ask for others opinion on this.

I'm looking for -3 5 at center and maybe 9 on the top. This is to really tame it down of course.

I will say that before I brought everything down, there was a crap load of interaction when moving the collective. Now it still has some but I'm going to take that out with my end points.

Caine

[Angelos]

Angelos, we still need a new swash option for this because, as Scott points out, many of us are using that 4th servo output for the tail gyro gain.

I am a little sceptical about this. Is any heli using 3-servo 90deg swash out of the box? To me the 3-servo 90deg eCCPM seems a convenient hack for the Raptor. You are not really getting the full advantages of the 3-servo 120deg or the 4-servo 90deg.

I would certainly prefer to modify the leverage and go for 3-servo 120deg or even better add one more servo on the back and make it 4-servo 90deg. With the 4-servo system any one of them can fail and you can still maintain a good degree of control.

Adding one more swash type in the firmware (to free Sv4 for gyro gain) is easy. However, I am very conscious of how the program memory is used. The latest firmware is using almost 70% of the available program space. I can probably bring this down to 60% with some optimisations. However, anything that is added now has to stay in for the life of the product and it may take away the chance of having a more useful feature. Does it really worth it when S-4 can already do the job (better)?

-Angelos

[GGoodrum]

Angelos, we still need a new swash option for this because, as Scott points out, many of us are using that 4th servo output for the tail gyro gain.

I am a little sceptical about this. Is any heli using 3-servo 90deg swash out of the box? To me the 3-servo 90deg eCCPM seems a bit of convenient a hack for the Raptor. You are not really getting the full advantages of the 3-servo 120deg or the 4-servo 90deg.

I would certainly prefer to modify the leverage and go for 3-servo 120deg or even better add one more servo on the back and make it 4-servo 90deg. With the 4-servo system any one of them can fail and you can still maintain a good degree of control.

Adding one more swash type in the firmware (to free Sv4 for gyro gain) is easy. However, I am very conscious of how the program memory is used. The latest firmware is using almost 70% of the available program space. I can probably bring this down to 60% with some optimisations. However, anything that is added now has to stay in for the life of the product and it may take away the chance of having a more useful feature. Does it really worth it when S-4 can already do the job (better)?

-Angelos

Yes, the new TT e550 and e620SE electric Raptors use exactly this setup. The main reason I did my latest eTitan conversion was because the new eRaptors are not very "a123 cell friendly", but I basically set it up so that it was very much like the new TT models.

TT has sold over 80,000 Raptors, at last count, so it is pretty safe to assume they will move a fair number of these. :) The Raptor will continue to be one of the most used platfoms for AP/AV setups, as well, mainly for its reliability and affordability.

Like I said ealier, you don't need four servos anymore. With modern digitals that have 150-200 oz/in torque ratings, there's no need to "distribute the load", with a 120-degree setup. Also, in four years I have NEVER seen a servo fail that wasn't caused by a crash.

Please let me know if you need more to plead my case. :) We really do need this.

Thanks -- Gary

[GJestico]

[quote] However, I am very conscious of how the program memory is used. The latest firmware is using almost 70% of the available program space. I can probably bring this down to 60% with some optimisations. However, anything that is added now has to stay in for the life of the product and it may take away the chance of having a more useful feature. Does it really worth it when S-4 can already do the job (better)?

-Angelos
How much room for programming you gonna need when the inertial sensors come on line ?
Dont pooch it forthe rest of us just for a few inferior raptor half breeds. :badair: whos owners wont bother to buy a suitable 9ch radio.
Theres a reason no other heli uses that wacked "90 + 180" ccpm setup. ewww. Im amazed they are selling that as a 3d machine. It wont be as big a deal on an AP machine though. Fast collective will get you lotsa interaction with the "normal" servos everyone will be using. Wonder why TT did it that way? cant see any thing in the way of doing it right (120d)

Greg

[GGoodrum]

Man, what a load of crap! "Inferior Raptor half-breeds?" Boy somebody is really full of themself today. The Raptors, including the new e550/e620 models make excellent AP/AV platforms. As for your ignorant comment about not buying a "suitable 9ch radio", my 14MZ actually has more than I need but since the rotating mounts require a separate receivers, It can get pretty darn expensive to put two G3s in both my Raptor and the Logo 10.

Counting the gain for AP-2000i, I need 10 channels. Six for the basic heli stuff, including the gyro, and one each for pan, tilt and trigger. On my Logo 10, I used two DP149 9-channel PCM receivers, with the gyro and AP-2000i sharing one channel, via the use of the 4th servo output on the AP-2000i. So, wiseguy, to do this on any of the new eRaptors, we need a 3-servo 90-degree swash setting.

Finally, you obviously don't know squat about 3D setups. A 90-degree eCCPM configuration has less interaction than a 120-degree setup. Most radios, with the exception of the 12MZ/14MZ and the new DX7, output servo commands serially, so there's always SOME interaction with eCCPM setups, there's just less with the 90-degree variety.

As it turns out, I'm switching everything over to 2.4GHz-based systems. Right now, that means a DX7 and 7-channel receivers. I'll need a separate transmitter for the camera stuff, so I'm not channel-limited, but I still think the 3-servo 90-degree swash setup is STILL needed.

-- Gary