LiPo Batteries for Flight Pack

[HeliDriver]

I've been running Lithium Polymer batteries with the Duralite 5.1 regulator and I've been very pleased.

I run a 2200mah pack. I have a small charger that is completely automatic. I got my stuff from BatteriesAmerica. the 2200mah pack was under $40.00 and the charger was around $20.00

Running all digitals really suck down the juice and I was using NiMH packs and I could see the demand on the battery was really dropping my voltage below what I felt was a safe operating voltage.

[Tim Tompkins]

I have also gone with the batteries america packs on three of my helis. They are very good alternitive to all the others. I have duralites also but the size and expense is too much to ignore. I love these lipos. I can fly all I want and test at 1.0 amp between flights and never see the end.I use my automatic charger from Duralite to recharge. TimT

[rstacy]

Keeping in mind that you can not fast charge the pack, is 2200 mah really enough for a days flying?

Batteries America - 2200 mah - $38.95
Warranty - "Our products are covered by manufacturers warranty." (I dont know what this means other than "Dont call us")

Century - 2200 mah - $34.95
Warranty - I couldnt find anything on their warranty

[Whirly-Girl]

Here is what I do about battery power:

"Figure out how much flying time you want to make AT MOST before recharge. Let's say 6 flights * 15 minutes = 90 minutes = 1.5 h (hours) for a single flying day if you will recharge only when at home...it sounds like you don't want to field charge.

Then decide which battery technology you want. NiCd is more traditional, LiPo with regulator is more high-tech (regulator needed, less weight for given capacity).

Multiply flying time with current draw: for instance all digital would give 2A*1.5 h = 3 Ah which equals 3000 mAh.

Finally calculate the safety margin. The value you found above is the BARE MINIMUM for that. If you use LiPo, take some 30% extra (that would give 4000 mAh), if you use NiCd, use 100% extra (6000 mAh). Especially with NiCd, the voltage on the battery when loaded with 2A will drop quickly when after the battery is discharged more than half, which gives slower-working servos and noise on the gyro. Therefore I recommend so much extra capacity. LiPo has a regulator and therefore doesn't drop so you dont need the large margin."

This is information I have collected...I did NOT derive it on my own, although I have a degree in EE too.

As for where to get LiPo's, I always order mine through Gene Payson - TBM. He sets me up with good deals and his batteries are "fresh"...newer technology. The way he explained it to me is that Duralite bought a HUGE supply way back when...and they are still selling those batteries. His batteries that he uses to make up flight packs are newer and you can get them cheaper because you're not paying for that charge-safe circuitry...NOT NEEDED! That's just so some idiot doesn't plug a LiPo into a NiCd charger...BAD! So, hope this helps!

Jeanette

[rstacy]

As for where to get LiPo's, I always order mine through Gene Payson - TBM. He sets me up with good deals and his batteries are "fresh"...newer technology. The way he explained it to me is that Duralite bought a HUGE supply way back when...and they are still selling those batteries. His batteries that he uses to make up flight packs are newer and you can get them cheaper because you're not paying for that charge-safe circuitry...NOT NEEDED! That's just so some idiot doesn't plug a LiPo into a NiCd charger...BAD! So, hope this helps!


Interesting post.

Does TBM have their receiver packs hidden some where? I couldn't find a decent 2 cell LiPo receiver pack on his page.
I did get a chuckle because the Duralite charger is the first charger listed on his charger page! This from the guy that allegedly criticized their batteries :wink:

[DavidH]

The way he explained it to me is that Duralite bought a HUGE supply way back when...and they are still selling those batteries. His batteries that he uses to make up flight packs are newer and you can get them cheaper because you're not paying for that charge-safe circuitry...NOT NEEDED!

Wonder where Mr. Payson gets his information. Duralite does not use the Lithium/metal cell (Tradian) technology any more. And they have not used those cells for about 3 years now. That would be the cells I believe he would be referring to.
Duralite uses Lithium/Ion cells in their battery packs. The cells are freshly manufactered. As for the charge-safe circuitry not needed, I guess some of these people that have had problems charging lithium batteries would probably have a different opinion. Yes there is people that can charge these batteries with out a charge safe circuit and not have problems. But it sure is nice to have that circuit there for a little peace of mind when the batteries are charging. The charge safe circuit also incorporates a cell balancer system to keep the cells matched when charging.
Most of the top Li/Po pack manufactuers are also using a charge safe and cell balancer circuit in there batteries.

David

[Whirly-Girl]

I believe Gene makes the receiver packs as you need. Not every scenario is listed on his website. My particular setup is 7.4V, 4700mah LiPo using a 5.1V regulator.

As for the new-ness (?) of the batteries...I'm just repeating what I was told.

When I'm charging at home, I use the Duralite 3+1 charger. At the field, I have a Triton to charge any and all batteries. I've converted almost everything I fly to lithium. I don't want to mess with having one type of this airplane, another on this heli, etc. etc. Only thing left to convert is my TX battery. So, I chose to go without the charge-safe circuitry...I bought the proper chargers and I monitor the charging process! And, for about $0.69 at Michael's craft store, I bought a clay flower pot with a drainage hole and a clay base. I lay my battery on the base and plug it in. Turn the pot upside down and you have a vented, fire-safe charging unit! :)

[DavidH]

Well I was looking at TBM's website.
Looks like he is just selling batteries that are made up by other companies.

Seems ironic he would say that Duralite batteries are not fresh. Yet Duralite also sells the Li-Po packs that he does that are manufactered by Thunder Power.

Also I love this excerpt from the warranty statement

Don't be surprised if you make a minor mistake like wiring something wrong and it damages something beyond repair. That's just part of the electric game!!

While I can help out, I cannot do any warranty service myself. 99% of the time, problems with electrical parts are due to operator error


So your taking your receiver packs out of the heli to charge them?

I rather have the charge safe circuit and the stability of the Lithium Ion hard cells than the Li-Po's for receiver packs.

David

[Whirly-Girl]

Yes, I take my batteries out of my aircraft to charge.

Hmmm...I'm going to have to confer with my husband about that warranty statement and TP manufactured batteries. I just know what my battery specs are...I didn't even choose them...hubby did. He bought them as a gift for me when I was upgrading stuff on my used Raptor .30.

HA HA! Maybe I ought to do some more reading? I was going to just put that all in my brand new 50SE. The regulator and batts are all new.

:dontknow

[DavidH]

Well all I have to go on about the Thunder Power batteries is that TBM has pictures of them listed on his website with the TP label on them.
Also the Kokam's he advertises seem to be the same one that FMA and MPI sell.

When TBM was first mentioned I thought this was a place that specialized in batteries and chargers.

Just my opinion from looking at the website. TBM is just like any other hobby shop. Seems like all the products they are carrying are different brands from different manufactuers. Can get nearly all the same products thru any good hobby shop.
All the ESC's, Chargers, Li-Po's can all be obtained thru other dealers also.

I am not knocking TBM, but there is other dealers around that carry the same merchandise. Most of it can be obtained for less money.

David

[WillJames]

All david is saying is be careful from a outfit that resells others batteries and makes claims like Duralite is selling old batts. I know for a fact that is not true, I have been running SDuralite packs exclusively for over a year in my RX and TX. I now have 9 of their newest Li-Po's manufactured by FLightPower using the newest technology for selection and matching available anywhere. Cell balancing is a HUGE improvement in Li-Po pack technology. Li-Ion and Li-Po both perform WAY better with the balancing circuit than without after a number of cycles. I know because I have had 10 or so packs without the balancing circuit. They also get a lot more dangerous when out of balance as the higher cells get closer or overcharging due to the pack not peaking like it should. Eric Larson wrote a very good post about his experiences with this happening on the thread pasted in the link below. Eric has as much experience with Li-Po technology as anyone I know.

http://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=4576

Be careful with this Lithium technology. It is great stuff and I would never use any other technology, but be careful and reality check with research any info you get, especially from resellers. If there is any question, go to the manufacturer and the people out in the field who are using the technology.

Best of luck with your LiPo's, they ROCK!!

[Whirly-Girl]

I believe Gene makes the receiver packs as you need. Not every scenario is listed on his website. My particular setup is 7.4V, 4700mah LiPo using a 5.1V regulator.

I went downstairs and checked what I have...I meant Li-Ion...not Li-Po.

It is the one listed at: http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/LiIonBatteries.htm
I have the TBM 4 cell square pack.

How can you tell if this particular pack is just a re-sell of TP/Kokam? I can't see anything on mine that says so.

Thanks for the help David and Will!

[FlyinTiger]

I believe Gene makes the receiver packs as you need. Not every scenario is listed on his website. My particular setup is 7.4V, 4700mah LiPo using a 5.1V regulator.

I went downstairs and checked what I have...I meant Li-Ion...not Li-Po.

It is the one listed at: http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/LiIonBatteries.htm
I have the TPM 4 cell square pack.

How can you tell if this particular pack is just a re-sell of TP/Kokam? I can't see anything on mine that says so.

Thanks for the help David and Will!

I am reingaging Gene at Troy Built Models to get this sorted out...I just don't see why I've got to pay twice as much for a battery to get a quality product...Duralite is way over priced!

[FlyinTiger]

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I wrote to Gene Payson at Troy Built Models and asked about the Duralite Batteries Information that I had heard previously and he summed it up for me. I am not a battery marketer, nor do I claim to know the facts beyond what I've been told, so...

:!: Here's the info I've received:
------------------------------------------------
There is only one manufacturer of Li Ion cells, LG Chem in Korea. Everyone uses them including Duralite. Duralite is selling old cells. Their cells are only 2000 mah because they bought a lot of them and they are still trying to get rid of them. There have been two cell upgrades by LG Chem since then.

Duralite says they like to wait to be sure the cells are good or that you
don't need a 2350 because a 2000 is good enough but that's BS. They are
stuck with old cells and they are just trying to dump them. There is a
lawsuit against Duralite so Emory sold the company to some one in Canada to avoid the suit.

Cell balancing is important if the cells are run down to their low limit.
The cells can get imbalanced. If so, they will not hold a charge as well as
before and they will have to be replaced eventually. I don't think it's
worth $20 for something that can itself cause a problem if it malfunctions.
It is a PC board and it can go bad too, so I don't think it's necessary.
Most batteries don't have this circuit. Duralite charges a lot for its
products so it can afford to spend a lot in advertising. Their advertising
is a lot of propaganda so they can sell expensive batteries. I would never
use a Duralite battery. They conned a lot of people into buying Li Metal
batteries a few years ago and then they pulled out because the cells were
unstable and got a lot of people upset.

Best regards,

Gene Payson
Troy Built Models
www.troybuiltmodels.com
1650 Honore Ave
Sarasota, Fl 34232
(941) 342-8685
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There you have it, straight from the man himself. :)

[FlyinTiger]

The following is information provided by another party who knows more than I do about Lithium technology.

He may wish to identify himself, though I will not do it for him.

------------------------
Duralite uses cells from Lichen. Duralite has an exclusive contract with them and Duralite is the only company in the hobby industry that they will supply these cells to.
This company supplies cells to Hewlitt Packard, Texas Instruments etc
as well as private label for Panasonic others.

Emory Donaldson is still part owner of Duralite. Emory is in charge of all the R&D for the Duralite products.
Jack Price is in Canada. Jack does the business side of the company and maintains the website. Emory Donaldson is in Daytona Beach Florida.

Jack and Emory are co owners of the company.

As for the Lithium Metal cells ( Tradian). Duralite could not get the cells any longer due to them being out of production. I used the Tradian cell packs from Duralite for 2 years without problem.
-------------------------

As always, I am learning and sharing the information with you all as I am privy to it.

Thank you for your continued patience! :D