THE SCUM OF THE TURBINE MODELLING TRADE IS BACK

[heli3d1]

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t307180p1/

http://www.helifreaks.com/about15169.html

[Heli_jack]

sounds like he never left

[wolfdad]

Well, this should come as no surprise to anyone. He's been "under-ground" dodging creditors for a good while, now and, it is the Christmas season and a chance to hook another unwary buyer.

I really hate to see this happen to anyone and, as far as getting his money back, don't take any bets.

I actually had my fingers crossed that we had seen the last of Neil, however, like a bad habit, he always comes back.
Doc

[Sara]

What is worrying me is that I thought I knew about most of Neil's victims now - in several cases he made excuses about it being Wren's fault that he couldn't supply stuff and they phoned me to check, or they got to hear that we were really the source of the engines and made enquiries about our engines. This guy in Norway paid TWO YEARS AGO and we've only just found out about him. How many more are there out there? And just imagine what it's like, parting with almost 6,000 USD and then being fobbed off with excuses for two years, waiting, having expectations raised and then dashed ....

I'm having to restrain myself from saying something unladylike and unseasonal!

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[wolfdad]

Sara,
My dear, thank you so very much for your "suave and debonair" response :wink: I know you would like to say much, much more.

I doubt that we will ever know the full extent that Neil went in ripping people off. Obviously, he had been at it for a good, long while.....and, unfortunately, still is.

I consider all the people that I deal with in the hobby as friends....or, I just don't do business with them and Neil tops the list. I just wish we had some way of telling people about his shananagans.
Doc

[Coolice]

Hey All,

Not again?! Every now and then this topic rears it's ugly head.

I hope the customer gets all his money back.
.

[Janek]

I'm watching with interest :roll:

I have a couple of mates that have been suckered in, despite all the warnings

[wolfdad]

Each time this a$$hole surfaces, somebody else has gotten "taken." And, of course, with turbine heli's, it's always for a "bundle." As Ian says, I sincerely hope that the individual involved gets his money back, however, past history says this isn't going to happen. And, it seems, that, no matter how much we warn folks about Neil, somebody is always willing (no offense intended) to plop down the bucks. It also seems that once somebody is bitten with "turbine fever," they tend to lose some of the caution they might othewise exercise in a purchase of this magnitude. My advice would be to first, deal with a "known" reputable dealer and secondly, before making a purchase of this size, to ask a ton of questions. This doesn't guarantee a satisfactory deal, however, it sure as hell cuts down on the odds of getting ripped off again.

People who continue to do business as Neil does usually wind up face down in a gutter eventually, because they pissed the wrong person off.....we can only hope this happens soon.
Doc

[DKTek]

Seems to me that at roughly $6K USD each time he does this, that the law would step in and do something legally. Without some action, the law appears to be condoning this guys practices and that really SUX. I think here in the US that any theft valued over $500 is a felony. This guy has been treated as if he's only done a misdemeaner. :arggg: What gives here? He must be blowing someone real good to be getting away with this stuff.... or has any of it been reported to the authorities?

I'm not one of his victims but I feel bad for them as not everyone reads or is even aware of what a R/C FORUM is. I find it hard to believe that cops don't visit these forums for their hobby interests. Cops usually make lousy full scale heli pilots but thats not to say they can't fly R/C. Chime in here and tell how and why this guy is getting away with this :!: Please :D

[wolfdad]

DKTek,
Your points are well-taken and, I lay no claim to being an expert on what constitutes a criminal act, other than my own common sense and conscience. What I have learned is that when a transaction crosses country borders, the banking laws change and, I think Neil has taken advantage of this situation.

The bottom-line in situations like this is to know who and what you are dealing with....the "who" being the individual you are handing money to and the "what" being the quality of the product, and, unfortunately, in most cases "word of mouth" is the only method of verification.

I have dealt with Wren, Jakadofsky, Hobbyparts and several other overseas turbine dealers and have, either out of pure luck or by doing my homework, not been dis-satisfied in any way. Sara and Roger Parrish with Wren, Peter Jakadofsky and Phil George with Hobbyparts have all been stand-up, up front individuals with whom I would never have the first moment of hesitation in dealing with. In this country, with regard to turbines, Al Wert at Starwood Scale, Chris and Larry Bergen and Dreamworks RC are the primary folks I do business with.

Neil has a never-ending set of scenarios with which he takes peoples' money. The scheme that I originally saw almost two years ago is the one where he proposes that someone buy and fly his product at a "reduced" price to gain advertising here in the US for his product. The reduced price and advertising serve to prey on one's ego. The end result is that you send the money, never see the product and when and if Neil responds, it is that he had "family problems," "personal issues," or whatever other "sad-sack" stories he can think of. And, on the few occasions that he has produced something in return, it always comes up short on some major compenent, such as a FADEC or gearbox. I know on several occasions, one specifically in Australia, that Wren, in order to keep their name above board, actually provided the missing compenent....and, Neil counts on this. BTW, and I won't elaborate more than what I say here, Wren has a major issue with Neil over trademark infringement (Neil, once again, was the bad guy). Quite honestly, I have never seen a situation where Neil came through with what was promised.

The long and short of this situation is that the turbine community is a very small one and we should be able to get the word out to both existing and potential turbine buyers about not just Neil, but about all of the folks who have screwed over our shipmates. And, I am not just talking about the occasional screw-up that everyone makes, but the long-term a$$holes out there that perpetuate their schemes on us.

One last thing of note here and that is the fact that it is incumbent on all of us to warn potential buyers. If you are a prospective buyer and have a specific make of turbine you are interested in, go to the source and ask questions. A good example is Hobbyparts and Phil George, both of which are reputable. Phil markets both Wren and Jetcat and I believe if you contacted either Wren or Jetcat, you would get a solid endorsement from both. A quick email with questions often pays a huge dividend in the end. In all of my turbine purchases, I have gone to the source and have always been provided with answers, advice and encouragement.

Doc

[Sara]

DKtek has asked about the law and why Neil hasn't been stopped. Reading the threads both here and on the other site, you will see that at last the law is catching up with him. It's taken a long time and one of the reasons is that in the UK, at least, he usually sends partial shipments. People pay the full amount and he sends something - usually the conversion parts and the gearbox, which are the parts he has in stock. The engines are a problem for him, since despite his claim to have a new TT Phoenix turbine engine, all the internal parts shown on his site are from Wren and we won't supply him any longer. Because Neil has already sent part of the order, it is more difficult for the customer to take action, and so they keep hanging on for the rest of it.
He is an expert at "almost" selling something but then not delivering. A typical example was when he met one guy, by arrangement, to hand over some engine parts and a gearbox at a model show. The customer paid him cash, Neil then showed him an engine but said "This isn't yours - yours is in the workshop because there's a problem with the gearbox, I'll send it next week." That was in July ... the guy was still waiting the following March. He was treated to all sorts of stories during this period including Neil claiming to be on his way to deliver the parts but having to turn back because of heavy traffic ... eventually the guy got his money back and bought from us.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[wolfdad]

Sara,
Many thanks for adding your "two cents" worth. I know you all have had a great deal MORE experience with this individual than most of us have put together.

I mentioned the situation in Australia because that was one I was familiar with through the end and I know Wren went "above and beyond" via Brian to make things right.

Oh, and purely out of CRS (can't remember stuff), I need to add that the folks at RC Rotortech in Australia (Brian and Ted) are absolutely GREAT to do business with as well. I can honestly say that these guys will bend over backward and then some to make sure things are right!!!
Doc

[DKTek]

Thanks Doc and Sara. Hopefully they nail his butt sooner than later. I imagine that some turbine guys are lucky to afford the initial turbine investment only once and Neil could wreck the victims chances of getting into turbines. :(

Mean people suck!

[watkykjy]

Erm, guys,

RC Heli is a very exciting hobby, but that's just one of the many that intrests me... Some others are security and, dare I say it, hacking...

So, with that in mind, why don't we just take down his site? At least that way, unsuspecting people will not be able to buy from him, because they won't see a site with all shiny pictures and stuff to rip them off in the first place?

What say all of you?

If we don't want to follow the underground route, we could always contact his ISP (easyspace.com), where his site is hosted, and just direct them to the forum and ask them to "legitimately" take down his site?

[Heli_jack]

Getting on real thin ice there with those statements. Not a good idea to voice them out loud.

[WillJames]

Erm, guys,

RC Heli is a very exciting hobby, but that's just one of the many that intrests me... Some others are security and, dare I say it, hacking...

So, with that in mind, why don't we just take down his site? At least that way, unsuspecting people will not be able to buy from him, because they won't see a site with all shiny pictures and stuff to rip them off in the first place?

What say all of you?

If we don't want to follow the underground route, we could always contact his ISP (easyspace.com), where his site is hosted, and just direct them to the forum and ask them to "legitimately" take down his site?


This kind of stuff falls outside of the scope of this R/C Helicopter site. I would definitely recommend a legal method of putting the guy out of business if you feel so inclined, but absolutely DO NOT resort to hacking or anything like that. I am shocked you would say that in public. WOW :arggg:

[wolfdad]

Will,
Thanks for chiming in.

Take my word for it that I would most certainly enjoy seeing Neil exit the hobby, make amends to the people he has screwed over or I would like to see whatever legal action that can be pursued so taken, however I DO NOT advocate hacking, physical threats or physical action.....not in any way, shape or form what I am about. I AM about getting the word out on people like Neil so that others who enjoy and contribute to this hobby can pursue their dreams and goals without losing money, time and frustration on an a$$hole like this.

My comment about somebody doing business like Neil winding up face down in a gutter is NOT to be construed as a threat....just a fact if you go through life screwing over your brothers.
Doc

[Gary Travis]

Well said Doc, violance is never the answer. The best thing is to swamp him with legal actions hence putting his face in the gutter.
Gary

[wolfdad]

Gary,
Our community is too small to tolerate the continued antics of individuals such as Neil. We have become a "tight" community because of a spirit of "taking care of each other." Yes, we all have our differences from time to time, however we are members of a very dynamic and very fast-growing subset of the overall heli community and, as such, we owe it to the folks coming in to ensure they get the best information possible....not only regarding safety and all the other nuances of the turbine heli community, but to do our best to safeguard our own values and not let our guard down when it comes to a first turbine purchase by a new individual. Unfortunately, we can only say and do so much. Neil seems to have an approach that works on the new folks. You and I both know how we were approached a couple of years back and, fortunately we had "good gouge" on NOT buying from Neil.
Doc

[watkykjy]

Hi guys,

Ok, thanks for your constructive critisism, it's well taken... I agree that comitting a crime to stop another one from happening is not the answer, but I was just toying with the idea of giving him some of his own medicine.

Anyway, apologies if it offended anyone, wasn't meant as something bad...

Let's do all we can then to just spread the word and advertise this mischief as far and wide as possible!

[wolfdad]

You said what was on your mind and, no offense was taken....just some precautionary thoughts on the matter. And, I sincerely appreciate you taking this on board and getting the word out. When it comes right down to it, unfortunately, that's about all we can do, Here at the Freak, you are among friends who DO care about what happens to each other.

Here's hoping your flying weather is great in SA
Doc

[disgusted]

Only now he is targetting the Jet people around the world.
I didn't know the history of Neil Key until it was too late.
I paid for a "demo" ZEUS engine and after some small delays was told it was shipped.
Tracking numbers were provided, however royal mail never registered them as posted and the only person who could track them was "Neil".
Thankfully paypal was used and a claim has been lodged.
Kent Trading Standards has also been contacted the case against him re-opened..

People need to start warning other in the jet side of things..

[Sara]

Only now he is targetting the Jet people around the world.
I didn't know the history of Neil Key until it was too late.
I paid for a "demo" ZEUS engine and after some small delays was told it was shipped.
Tracking numbers were provided, however royal mail never registered them as posted and the only person who could track them was "Neil".
Thankfully paypal was used and a claim has been lodged.
Kent Trading Standards has also been contacted the case against him re-opened..

People need to start warning other in the jet side of things..

I heard he was trying to target the jet people now. Everything goes quiet, you think he's gone away and then he turns up again. It seems that he does it over and over again. Someone recently sent me an article about Neil's activities before he got into turbines, when he was involved with full-size aircraft and hovercraft. It's on Page 3 of a newsletter which I hope I can attach here, and is entitled "Hovercraft Engines and Fraud". Interestingly, it mentions that Kent Trading Standards have been contacted - five years ago - and now "Disgusted" has contacted them again. I do wish they could do something about him.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

[DDragon]

I'm amazed that someone like this can carry on for so many years without getting caught. Even more amazed that someone could make this their "profession", as it seems he makes his living by scamming people.

[Sara]

Further to my earlier mail, I must add that the newsletter I have attached above is in the public domain at http://www.westofscotlandstrut.org.uk/WestOfScotlandStrut.NET/Home.aspx?

under newsletters, 2004, August. I believe the person who sent it to me found it online whilst searching for information about Neil.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines