Unlimited flight time, just about A123

[spork]

I can definitely feel the weight and the climb out of course is not at all impressive. But I was only powered by 3S lipo so I won't know if 4S A123 with its higher voltage will do.

I'm not trying to talk you into A123's. There are trade-offs, but my climbout with the A123's seems as good or better than any LiPo pack I've flown (though I have not flown LiPo 4S packs).

[rcboosted]

There are definitely trade-offs. I do like the longevity and its ability to withstand abuse better. (according to FMA) The fast charging is also a great plus, but of course that will require a charger and power supply capable of doing so. Hence the difficulty in deciding.

[Finless]

Hey Spork... I bet if you put your swash plate leveler in series with these you would have a ROCKET SHIP! A leveler does look a little like a Flux Capacitor!

:lolol

Sorry I had to do that ;)

bob

[spork]

Actually I've never owned a swash leveler in 30 years of R/C modeling. But I may have to get one to taunt you. I guarantee I'll have one on hand if and when we meet! :mrgreen:

You know what I'm tempted to do, is to hide one in your luggage so it has to come out when you go through security at the airport. You will be embarrassed beyond words. Or maybe someone can slip one in your field box so the other guys at the field see it, and you'll be saying "it's not mine - I don't know how it got there!".

[Pinecone]

Shhh, don't TELL him. :)

[spork]

Are you kidding!? He's an old man. Probably forgotten already! :mrgreen:

[Finless]

Actually I've never owned a swash leveler in 30 years of R/C modeling. But I may have to get one to taunt you. I guarantee I'll have one on hand if and when we meet! :mrgreen:

You know what I'm tempted to do, is to hide one in your luggage so it has to come out when you go through security at the airport. You will be embarrassed beyond words. Or maybe someone can slip one in your field box so the other guys at the field see it, and you'll be saying "it's not mine - I don't know how it got there!".

I believe you would do this too ;)

I would say FORK did it :lolol

Bob

[Cryofix]

been busy with my AP ship latley all, and the weather has kinda sucked. I will be heading to GA. to Clint stones birthday party and I will have my trex with me and DebianDog will have his HD camera so you will have very good footage. If there is a top rated pilot there Ill let him ring it out on tape.

[ghostrider414]

Spork what charger are you using?
Would a multiplex LN-5014 Work.

[spork]

I'm using the Triton with a LipoDapter. That works fine so far. The LipoDapter will convert any NiCad, or LiPo charger to an A123 charger. My other recommendation would be the CellPro 4S. I'm not familiar with the LN-5014.

[ghostrider414]

I'm using the Triton with a LipoDapter. That works fine so far. The LipoDapter will convert any NiCad, or LiPo charger to an A123 charger. My other recommendation would be the CellPro 4S. I'm not familiar with the LN-5014.



Who sells the lipo dapter?

[spork]

Who sells the lipo dapter?

http://www.slkelectronics.com/lipodapter/index.htm

$40 shipped.

[ShuNut]

U had anymore tests with the A123's Spork ? or any of u other guys ?

Cryofix I'm looking forward to seeing the vid of the A123's, I hope ur camera man\woman is better than the last one :lol: .

Peace

[spork]

Haven't had mine back out yet. I plan to try it this weekend with the Align 25A ESC.

[kgfly]

I think the A123s offer an interesting alternative but are not for everyone. Below are some thoughts based on my research.

Waiting for them to get lighter/higher capacity = a very blue face
If you are waiting for them to get "smaller and higher capacity" then you will be disappointed. These M1 cells are already using nanotechnology to maximise the surface area of the active materials. They have had many years of R&D to get to this point and are highly optimised. The likelihood of A123 significantly increasing the energy/weight or the energy/volume are very slim. While it might be possible to package the technology in lipo-like soft bags to save some of the packaging weight, this is probably not a good trade off as it would remove the mechanical robustness and importantly, significantly degrade the thermal performance. Hence the only significant possibilities are smaller/lighter/lower capacity (eg 1000mAh AA-size perhaps) or larger/heavier/higher capacity (eg 3000mAh D-size perhaps) but whether they will do that is anyone's guess.

How will my ESC cope ?
First note that the difference in per-cell voltages:

* Lipo: nominal 3.7, fully charged 4.2, under decent load, 3.3
* A123: nominal 3.3, fully charged 3.6, under decent load 2.9

The Align35A speedies are rated to 4S lipo so will handle 4S A132 easily and with less stress on the BEC. Even so it, and most other ESC, use a cheap linear regulator in the BEC which gets increasingly inefficient as the input voltage rises. Odds are it will overheat using 4S (of either technology) so a separate switched-mode BEC is probably a good idea. YMMV.

What about lifetime and performance/
A123 claim 30C/50C, 10A charging and 1000 cycles. However the small print says that 1000 cycles is only below 10C usage and at 1C charge rates. Practical testing has shown that actual performance within a reasonable temperature range (below 140F) is more like 10C/15C/20C (constant, 20s, 5s). A123 say nothing about how fast charging affects lifetime and there isn't enough field experience to know yet.

To be fair, only the very top end lipos rated at 20C/30C really come close to delivering that performance and even those, if you read the fine print, are rated at 100 (or 200 for kokam) cycles at 10C or below and 20-30 cycles at 20C.

BTW - end-of-life is defined as the point where capacity has fallen to 80% of nominal. Of course we as users might choose to keep using the batteries beyond that point.

So what's it all mean ?
At the moment you cannot beat lipo for packing the most power into the smallest and lightest package. They are being tuned ever more for a T450 in terms of optimising size, capacity and weight. However, charging is (normally) limited to 1C and they must be closely monitored throughout. Lifetimes for moderate load usage are around 100 cycles for very well cared for packs but degrade severely if packs are stressed (eg pulling 20C on a 20C-rated pack).

A123 benefits include being more robust, inherently safe (no thermal runaway, no flames if punctured, self limiting on short circuit without combusting), more tolerant of abuse (deep discharge is OK), allows up to 4C charge rates and can be charged indoors and unattended. If you keep the load down you can get outstanding lifetime, 200 cycles should be easy and 1000 may be possible. And of course looking at just the packs (ie ignoring the setup cost for new charger etc) they are cheaper than brand-name lipos. Potentialy quite a lot cheaper when used in 10S/12S setups for large helis.

A T450 it is an interesting test case as it is pretty much the smallest heli where using A123 is likely to be possible. The price/performance of ~2100mAh lipos has improved tremendously. You can get no name 3S 2200 20C/30C packs for ~$30 (which may not really perform well at 20C!) or premium packs for ~$80. Typical weight is about 180g. Applying the 80% discharge rule you get about 1750mAh out of them at around a 10V average. Using A123 you can build a 4S 2300 10C/15C 310g pack for under $50. Assuming you can realistically fly to perhaps 90% you get about 2070mAh at around an 11.6V average.

Most reports for A123 on T450 so far are that a 4S1P pack is very good for hovering and sport flying with the same or longer flight times as 3S lipo. We're still waiting for some reports from 3D pilots to know how they go with that high-load use pattern.

Of course to get the most out of A123 you will probably need a new charger and possibly an updated power-supply (potentially a bigger problem for field charging)so there are setup costs too.

What chargers have A123 (LiFe) support?
The FMA CellPro4S (max 3A output) is an excellent budget solution. It is an intelligent integrated balance charger which IMO is always better than a charger + discharge balancer combo. Due to its limited output power it will only charge a 4S pack at up to about 3A (1.3C)

The other budget alternative is the eStation BC5 (max 5A/50W output) which is also an integrated balance charger but has the added advantage of of being capable of up to 5S. It will do a 4S pack at 3.3A (1.5C).

The eStation BC6 (max 5A/50W output) is due out soon, has an integrated AC/DC power supply and goes up to 6S, but will still only do a 4S pack at 3.3A (1.5C).

The eStation BC8 (max 7A/150W) gets you to 8S but you need a separate balancer (eg PB6). It will do a 4S pack at 7A (3.0C).

The eStation 902 (max 9.9A/200W) gets you to 12S and you need a separate balancer (eg PB6). It will do a 4S pack at 9.9A (4.3C) which is close enough to the 10A max charge curent rating for the cells.

The TP1010 (max 10A/220W) gets you 10S but you need a separate balancer (eg TP210V). It will do a 4S pack at 10A, the max allowed. You can upgrade the firmware on the TP1010 (with the purchase of a special cable) which is a nice feature (this is how the are adding LiFe support) as most other chargers have to be returned to the factory for a firmware update.

Conclusion
A123 offers a viable and potentially attractive solution, even for a T450 so if you are curious, give it a go. Get the best charger/balancer solution you can afford if you want maximum flexibility and the option to charge A123s at high rates.

[kgfly]

Spork what charger are you using?
Would a multiplex LN-5014 Work. IMO you would be *much* better off spending $60 on a CellPro4S than $40 on the lipodapter.

The lipodapter is not a balancer so now you have to hook 5 things up: power supply -> charger -> LipoDapter -> balancer -> battery

There is an excellent tutorial on the LipoDapter home page that explains how it works. It simply monitors the pack voltage and stops the charge when it reaches the appropriate threshold (4.15V/cell for lipo and 3.65V/cell for A123). I think it is highly subject to human error since you have to actively swap it from Lipo-mode to A123-mode every time you power it up via a fiddly process. If you forget you will destroy your pack (although it won't explode into flames like a lipo).

To use it you must be able to set your charger to a constant current mode with the appropriate target max voltage. Typically this would be a NiCd setting. For a 4S A132 pack I guess you would choose something like a 12S NiCd setting at your choice of current, say 5A for the fastest charge.

Your LN-5014 looks very much like my SwallowAdvance (and the Hyperion Eos5 IIR) so it should be able to be used with a LipoDapter but I think it would be safer and better to use a CellPro4S or eStation BC5. The setup is much simpler (power supply -> charger -> battery) and the operation is simpler to configure, does a better job, will give you more feedback (eg display individual cell voltages) and is safer.

Just one opinion.

[RC Accessory]

The eStation BC8 (max 7A/150W) gets you to 8S but you need a separate balancer (eg PB6). It will do a 4S pack at 7A (3.0C).


The BC-8 has a built in 8S balancer. If you need to charger/balance larger than 8S packs, then the 902 with dual PB-6 balancers and you are good to 12S.

The 902 also charges up to 9.9 amps vs 7 amps on the BC-8.

Also, the BC-5 does not support A123's, although the new BC-6 does.

RC Accessory, Inc.
Auth US Bantam Importer

[ShuNut]

Thx for that very informative post kgfly u deffinatly know ur stuff.

Personaly i really, and i mean REALLY think currenct batt technology sucks big time. Here we are now in 2007 and the best tecnologhy can only offer 4-8 mins of hard flying for our helis.

With the Ancient Egiptians using electric harnessed for FREE from the energy around us many many thousands of years ago, and then in more modern day times Tesla, thats Nikola Tesla also found ways to harness free energy should put us all to shame.

Its a sad world we live in where all of this info is now highly guarded by those who are REALLY in power and "they" dont want us to know any of this imformation.

Nealy everthing electronic we use today has something to do with Tesla but in our Western Education System all we're taught about Tesla is he invented A\C, Tesla Coil, brushless motor, and MAYBE a few other things, but internationally leaving out most of his major inventions and works. People from all over the world regularly invent either much better ways to get our power our compleatly FREE energy, but we NEVER hear of them in the main streem as "they" have too much to lose if this info got out. In other words we could ALL be using FREE energy for our helis, houses, cars, and businesses if this info was freely avalable to the masses.

I urge the young geniuses (or anyone who had a little overstanding of Electronics) of today to study the info left to us by Nikola Tesla, theres a few documenterys that you wont see on TV u can download from Bittorent about Tesla proving many jaw dropping bits of info which to say the least in VERY VERY Interseting.

Anyway enough of my ranting :motz .

I've had some major cash flow issues lately so i wont be able to try the A123's for a few weeks, but i deffinaly want to try them.

Most reports for A123 on T450 so far are that a 4S1P pack is very good for hovering and sport flying with the same or longer flight times as 3S lipo. We're still waiting for some reports from 3D pilots to know how they go with that high-load use pattern.
Very true my freind, thats what i keep saying to myself, hoping to hear some positive reports very soon and hope to see some vids so we know how good they really are for 3D on the 450.

Personaly i'm currently using TP eXtrems 2070 lipos and so far i have 95 flights on each, but i fear i wont be getting loads more, i still get good power for 6 mins though.

Peace

[kgfly]

Oops :oops: Thanks for catching those mistakes Evan. Any chance that LiFe support will be added to the BC5 ?

[RC Accessory]

Oops :oops: Thanks for catching those mistakes Evan. Any chance that LiFe support will be added to the BC5 ?

I do not know for sure, but my guess would be yes. Bantam just announced the BC-6 AC/DC Charger. Take the BC-5, add AC power, 6S balancer, plus A123 Li-Fe ability, as well as Storage, Fast, and Cycling.

Almost a BC-8 in functionality! Still limited tyo 50 Watts.

[ShuNut]

Cryofix & spork or anyone else... any new info on how these cells are performing in the Trex ?
Did u get to do a vid Cryofix

[spork]

Its a sad world we live in where all of this info is now highly guarded by those who are REALLY in power and "they" dont want us to know any of this imformation....

People from all over the world regularly invent either much better ways to get our power our compleatly FREE energy, but we NEVER hear of them in the main streem as "they" have too much to lose if this info got out.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I urge the young geniuses (or anyone who had a little overstanding of Electronics) of today to study the info left to us by Nikola Tesla

Won't that just get them killed, or otherwise silenced!?

[ShuNut]

Ofcorse not, its becase ppl dont know this info why "they" have power, no other reason.
Download some Tesla vids and see for yourself
Using Bittorent you can find many interesting vids on Tesla and others that you wont see on TV on in shops, and many of the vids dont ask you for belief but use facts for proof.

Information Is Power.
-----------------------

Anyway anymore info on A123's :?: :?: :?:

[spork]

Ofcorse not, its becase ppl dont know this info why "they" have power, no other reason.


I don't believe there are highly guarded secrets that will give us all free, clean energy. If I could download videos about Tesla from the internet and learn these secrets, I would. Then I'd become filthy rich. I'll let you know how that goes. :mrgreen:

Incidentally, "they" don't exist. If they did, we'd call them something other than "they".

I'm aware that Tesla did great things, and I have seen some of the video you're talking about.

Anyway anymore info on A123's :?: :?: :?:

I've been busy hanging out at the Colbert Report with a chick from the Bunny Ranch - so no more data on my A123's yet. My latest information was very good power (IMO) for 8 minutes, and put 2000 mAH back in. Right now I'm designing a new battery mount setup for the A123's on the 450. I'll post pics when it's done (hopefully tonight).

[ShuNut]

I've been studying this kind of information for over 6 yrs now and "They" do exist and there are many names for them, but I'm not hear to convince people of what they dont want to know.

I don't believe there are highly guarded secrets that will give us all free, clean energy. If I could download videos about Tesla from the internet and learn these secrets, I would. Then I'd become filthy rich. I'll let you know how that goes.

Well u cant watch a vid and build a low or free energy machine, i wish we could :roll: , these people are highly skilled engineers ect.

For anyone intersted watch this video before making up your mind
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7485732493597773138 .. for it is said

"Condemnation Without Investigation Is The Highest Form Of Ignorence"

I have this vid on my hdd and didn't even know it was on google. :D
I hope some of you Watch it and u will fine some very interesting info there.
Also a new high prodution film called "who killed the electric car" is quite good.
---------------

8 mins sounds ok Spork, what HS are u running ? and what flying style ?
Cryofix where that vid u promised us ? :mrgreen: