Guys I need your help...

[R-4-L]

Guys, I urgently need some information so any answers to the following questions is greatly appreciated..

I need a decent AP rig producing a clean smooth video shots..

Would a Raptor 90 with O.S.91 c-spec do the job?
size of blades? 720mm would do?
specific gear-ratios?
recommended mounts with tilt-pan functions?
types of video cameras ? need optical/digital stabilized camera?
any recommended video downlink system? blackwidowav.com?

Thanks...

[LoopBaCK]

I would say a very good platform is the eRaptor. In fact DJ just put one up for sale and it has a demo video: http://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=26731

I've ran both gassers and electric. My opinion is if you're needing long days of shooting video the gasser platform is better suited (due to long flight times). Much more vibes to work. However, there are some very good mounts and techniques to achieving smooth video (on both gas and electric). The electrics have shorter flight times but multiple batteries can solve that issue and the electrics start off with so much less vibration.

I'd recommend staying away from nitro power for the primary reason of the mess. The oil tends to find its way back to your camera equipment...

[R-4-L]

Wes thanks for the reply,, thats a nice looking machine

the thing is, a Raptor is the only available option for me right now as I'v got an offer to do some aerial videography for an advert. company, and they want everything to be ready as soon as possible (as usual), despite the fact that a Gasser is 1000 times more appealing to me than nitro for the same reasons you mentioned, I have to go with the raptor 90 for the meantime, if things go well, i'll be able to afford a more profissional dedicated helicam for this purpose only.

if nitro will pose a problem, I'll try my best to tackle it, I saw a picture once here in this forum where someone fixed a long hose from the muffler to the back along the tail, and the camera I'll be mounting will be used for a very short period of time.. besides, I'v never flew a gasser before so no time to learn how the mechanics/engine works..

I have been looking at Airfoilskycam's: http://www.airfoilskycam.com/bizpack.php
and been impressed by the specs so far.

[MLaBoyteaux]

Let's start with what camera are you going to lift and how much does it weigh?

What type of flight profile are you looking at, mostly just hovering and panning or forward flight action shots that require being able to point the camera in any direction?

[AZ ChopperCam]

I have been looking at Airfoilskycam's: http://www.airfoilskycam.com/bizpack.php
and been impressed by the specs so far.

I don't want to turn this thread into a company bashing thread but when I saw you mention Aifoil I felt compelled to clue you in on my experience. Do some searching on the forums about that company before you pull the trigger. They took $7750 from me (fraudulent credit card charge for something I didn't order) and after weeks of dealing with them the owner agreed to give the money back if I went on the the forum at runryder and publicly told everyone that I thought it was a 3rd party who applied the charge and not Airfoil.

Then a few weeks later I mentioned this exact thing to another person who was considering spending over $8K with them and the next day I get a call from the owner of Airfoil saying I better keep my mouth shut or he'll charge my card again and keep the $$ this time.

This is a tactic this company uses to silence ANYONE who speaks out about them. Not too many know this but while this was going on I was contacted by two other people who had similar experiences. One of them here in my town.

Needless to say all of my credit card companies and my bank are informed of this company and he will NEVER be able to charge anything to my cards again.

Be careful.... at the very least if you do buy from them destroy your credit card after the sale and get a new number issued.

[cainebean]

Airfoil does make a nice product, but I'd look into what Dj and others on here tell you. I'd look into Askman or Helicamsolutions. I'm not sure if Askman has a mount for that size Raptor, but if he does, get it... Great guy, great service! If not it is hard to beat Helicamsolutions. If you wreck it, send it back and he'll fix it for you. Hard to beat that deal!

[R-4-L]

Mark, it'll mostly be a compact-to-mid sized camera that may weigh 1.5kg, it'll need to have a video-out jack for the downlink transmitter. I am sure i'll be choosing a 3CCD one with some basic manual controls. though I don't know if an optical stabilizer option would be usefull for the purpose.

I'll also need the mount to have tilt and pan functions, my flight pattern is going to be mostly hovering while camera's mount tilts and pans, probably some slight movement, but not much. the mount will be operated by a second operator who'll have a monitor with the downlink's receiver.


DJ Vegh, I'm thankful for the warning, definitely not willing to have any setbacks I have to deal with , specially when I am 1000s of miles away.
My next stop for research would probably be helicamsolutions.com.. anyone has any experiences with the 360 line of products.. the retracts are really usefull for taking shots at any direction without needing to move the heli alot..

which leads me to the latest gadget I am more than willing to buy if it is usefull for my purpose..
If I am flying a heli for the purpose of aerial photography, I'd probably be flying at relatively high altitudes than I am used to.. so something that tells me my current altitude, attitude (horizon gauge), airspeed would be handy woulnd't you think?

I am talking about Eagle Tree's "Seagull telemetry" http://www.eagletreesystems.com/Plane/plane.html

thoughts?

[MLaBoyteaux]

R-4-L, have you done any aerial videography? It sounds like you have a potential paying client ready to go.

Learning how to shoot good aerial video takes a lot of testing and trial and error. No matter how good a manufacturer claims their mount is, how smoothly you fly and how well your heli is set up will determine how well your video looks.

If you want to know if the Raptor will work, try adding ballast to it to simulate the weight and fly it around. The mount you're looking at will weigh around 8 lbs without a camera. If you're comfortable flying the Raptor with at least 10 lbs strapped to it, then you'll do fine.

Use flybar weights and lots of expo. Make sure your head and tail rotor parts are all balanced, and be anal about it. Then practice, practice, practice!

And by all means, take DJ's advice and DO YOUR HOMEWORK! :D

[MLaBoyteaux]

For AP, a Spartan AP-2000 is a must have! All three of my heli's have one. For hovering up high like you're talking about, the AP-2000 is perfect.

[AZ ChopperCam]

No matter how good a manufacturer claims their mount is, how smoothly you fly and how well your heli is set up will determine how well your video looks

yup. agreed.

I also have the AP on my ships. I never used an AP for video until just last week. I normally used it for stills but I had a job where I needed to capture hovering video shot from about 500' AGL. No way in hell I could have held the chopper stable at that altitude without some help. Also with a lower gain setting you can use the AP to smooth out any large jerks. After last weeks video job I'm sold on using the AP for my video gear as well now.

[Xcellgasman101]

The HeliCam BroadCast 360 is a awesome mount, I have one, and have been useing it for over a year now. I will tell you one thing, the Mark IV is more visible in the air at high alt. There is alot of behind the scene work to do to the heli and mount to get smooth video,,, but it can be done,, You wont go wrong dealing with Jody,, He is truly one of the nicest guy's out there,,, Good luck,, XGM

[R-4-L]

yes I am a newbie in aerial videography, and yes, there's a client who's waiting for an anwer from me, thing is, this type of business doesn't exit here, so this client is offering some the financial help for me to buy the needed equipment, I didn't want to tell him that I'll need a complete system thats very expensive and then be disappointed with the result because I have no previous experience with this practice.

so I decided to use whatever I currently have (that's the heli and radio) and buy what's necessary, 2 weeks of constant training, I thought I may have a good chance on starting the business I was wishing to do and haven't been able to do because of some laws.. this client will provide me all the legal papers to permit me to do aerial videography.

[R-4-L]

about the AP2000, its a CCPM mixer right , so if I am using the standard mix such as the one on the raptor, wouldn't that be useless?

this will literally take me back to heli flight training, which is nice! lots of expos, low D/R and all positive pitch angles..

I just was't sure how much a 90 sized nitro machine would lift.

[R-4-L]

I remembered a product regarding stabilization, FMA Direct's CoPilot stabilizers,, I can actually get my hand on one here, how'd you compare that to AP2000i?

[AZ ChopperCam]

and all positive pitch angles..

don't do that! you want at least -4° of pitch so that you can descend without dropping headspeed and also so you can auto.

as far as FMA vs. AP2000i? no comparison.... not even close. Go with the AP

[R-4-L]

got it DJ, thanks... AP2000i seems to be having lots of recommendations

Now I am doubting my abilities!! I must admit I was kinda under-estimating the skills needed for successful video shoots.
I will train as passionate as the first time I flew helis 3 years ago and I know I'll do it if I can keep you guys giving me some feedbacks from the video trials i'd be posting..

I do know that I normally do nice slow flights without much stick-jerks if I fealt like it, so I hope this skill will come in handy.

[R-4-L]

ok I know i'v been flooding the thread, probably due to the excitement,, but one last question if I may please.. If you'd go for a ship that's built solely for the purpose of aerial videography, what would you guys recommend?
I know of the Bergen RC Observer EB, I don't know what other than the kit and engine the system comes with..

any other options?

Thanks

[MLaBoyteaux]

For video, yes, you need a dedicated ship. You could get by setting up a heli that you could shoot stills with and still fly around for "fun" flying, but a video ship really needs to be a dedicated rig. Mostly because you're going to set it up to fly like a dump truck and be as stable as possible.

I own a Canon GL-2 that I first started shooting aerial video with. It's a decent camera, 3CCD and all, it weighs about 1.4 kg. I now use a Sony HDR-HC1 that weighs just under 1 kg with a wide angle lens adapter and the video from it BLOWS THE GL-2 AWAY. It's an HD camera and it will convert the HD video into standard SD video internally when I capture from it. I guess what I'm trying to say is you don't necessarily need a large, heavy, 3CCD camera to get good video.

Before I plunked $5k down for a Gasser, I'd seriously consider an electric raptor. You CAN shoot smooth video without needing a KS-2 gyro and a Gasser. DJ has done it, and so have I (DJ's looks better, but I think it's his pilot skills to some degree!)

I think he was using a Panasonic GS-400 camera which also produces stunning video and weighs under 1 kg. Not trying to do a sales pitch, but the stretched Raptor he's selling is a good deal.

Here's what's going to happen with your R90. With 720mm blades, you don't have enough blade area for lifting an additional 10~12 lbs. The engine will produce enough raw HP, but the gear ratio and small disc area is going to limit how much weight you can lift. You need something in an 800mm blade length to lift that much weight safely, which means you need a gasser or a Maxi-Joker.

We're running the stretched electric raptors at 660~710 blade lengths in the 12~14lb all up weight range and that's about the limit.

So, can you lift an underslung and do video? Yes, but you're going to have to limit the mount to something in the 3kg weight range. Gaucho Valador in South America uses nitro engines on his helis and his videos are AWESOME. I don't think you'll be successful trying to lift a 4.5kg mount with the R90 (that's just my opinion, I'm probably wrong!).

For video, the front mount design is better. When I had mine set up with a front mount, it just seemed to feel more natural. But I don't have a market for video, so I focus on stills and an underslung mount is better suited for that task. I can still shoot video with the underslung mounts, and they work well, but the helicopters are set up for super stable hover and it takes a delicate touch to keep them in smooth forward flight. When you're flying, you have to think that every single input you make is going to wiggle the camera. You want to get the helicopter moving in the direction you want and then make the smallest, tiniest corrections to just keep nudging it in the direction you want it to go. The camera operator has to be of the same mindset, too. Any and every input the camera operator makes is going to also wiggle the camera, they need to be smoooooooth and steady. I think one of the reasons DJ's videos look so smooth, is he doesn't use a camera operator. This removes one set of fingers from screwing up a shot :lol:

Nothing kills a good shot like quick, jerky camera movements. This is why it's important for you and the camera operator to spend some time practicing and fine tune your methods. Having a mobil monitor set-up where the camera person can stand next to you is also a must for video. You need to be able to communicate effectively so they can provide feedback on how well the shot is framed up.

Of course, you could also just point the camera straight forwards and "paint" the subject by shooting and pointing the camera with the heli. With a little practice you can get a pretty good mind's eye view of what the shot is going to look like and just make multiple shot's. Again, a little practice, but it can be done.

My opinion is the quickest path to video you and your client will be happy with is to get a stretched raptor with a front mount and put a good, 1kg camera on it. :D

[R-4-L]

Mark, you have just made my day sir, everything thats been buzzing my mind are clearing away..
in fact I have thought about some of the methods i'll be using, like a second operator for the video controls by means of a downlink and a monitor.

i keep getting your tips and my mind is slowly adjusting to the methods i'll be using..

now, about the E raptor, could you explain abit more guys? I do not know what a "stretched" raptor means? is it modified? is it modified by a third-party company or home made modifications? I'd like to read more about it please..

I really do appreciate the your help guys, this is becoming even more interesting..

Thanks

[AZ ChopperCam]

Stretched Raptor is just that.... stretched out to run larger main and tail blades. My E-Raptors are stretched so that I can run up to 710mm mains and 100mm tails. The stretch is just a longer boom, belt and tail servo rod. Depending on the motor you run it may also require a gearing change to Raptor 30 gears (9.56:1).

The theory behind doing the stretch is to be able to carry a full load of gear and still be able to autorotate with a successful landing. I've demonstrated doing just that with my camera on board and recording. I can auto my 13lb stretched Raptor all day long. Not something I would wish to try with 620's at 13lb. With longer blades comes larger disk area and also more inertia in the system (heavier blades). Auto ability goes up as well as overall stability.

[MLaBoyteaux]

On the Raptors, we've taken either R30's or R50's and upgraded to a metal head block and 660mm to 710mm blades. In order to run these longer blades, we have to stretch the tail boom to provide enough clearance with the tail rotor. We also upgrade the tail rotor blades to 95mm.

Another option would be to use one of the lighter underslung mounts with a light weight camera under the R90. If you went with soft dampers in the head and added some flybar weights, you could probably make the R90 work. There are several pilots who shoot video with nitro machines, they just use extensions to port the exhaust back by the tail rotor.

I dont' think Askman makes anything (yet) that will support the weight of the R90. Jody at HelicamSolutions.com is marketing the EC-4, which has one of his standard gimbals underneath with shock dampeners. I think it's like 1.8kg without the camera. I know he's tested it under a Vario Benzine Trainer which weighs over 7kg, so it should support the R90 with no problem. You should be able to put a good camera on it and keep the mount under 3kg

This might be a quicker solution, since you've already got the R90 flying.

[askman]

with nitro, I would definitely go with strap on setup. my .50+ setup is strong enough for .90 size heli and has optional strap on kit. I am still finalizing the pan LG setup, which is has been tested to 15lb setup. the lower portion is strong enough for lot more weight, and pan bearings can handle about 100lb+ of force on it. that is the margin for hard landing. (about 10+g) I could go stronger bearings if needed though. My design is such that you can mount various combination of gimbal on the pan setup. still, I am more of an electric guy. I am really happy with the new models. it is lot more machining/work to build, but much better product.

Now, HCS does make good stuff, so you can't go wrong with them either. :)

[MLaBoyteaux]

I stand corrected! Sorry about that Andrey, you're coming out with new designs faster than I can keep up with them!

With the self leveling gimbal like on CaineBean's Logo mount, it outta make a very good video mount.

[R-4-L]

Is it true that the AP-2000i doesn't come ready for stabilization out of the box? requires IR sensors or adapters from FMA ?

[askman]

correct. you do need to pickup an IR sensor from FMA>