Confused about lipo's and chargers for a 450se - need help

[Steve CP Pro]

I need some help and I know you guys are very knowledgeable about this stuff. Almost everything I know so far I have learned from "this" site.

Bought the 450se and built it...yeaaa! Now I need batteries and a charger and a low voltage indicator...OK...and a balancer? Rut rho...hmmmm.

After reading as much as I could, I've become extremely confused. This shouldn't be so difficult. All I wanted was to do was buy a good charger and batteries to complete my 450. Now I'm mired down in formulas and makes and models, safety, flight times, loads, ratings and C numbers...it goes on and on. Uhhh...Houston, we may have a problem.

This is enough to make someone crazy who doesn't understand all of what is being presented. There are simple charts and even Excel spreadsheets for almost everything I can think of except the generally correct choices for batteries and chargers for each plane and what your use will be. (Training, hovering or 3d flying) These will vary depending on who answers but a consensus may appear I hope. Have I missed something? (yes, I watched Finless's videos)

I DO understand that with many choices to be had, it can come down to "Ford vs. Chevy", and what accessories you want. But, for a new guy this can be somewhat overwhelming. I also understand this is a fluid area and with battery's changing often and advances in technology, even a experience person may have a hard time keeping up.

So, to get to my point...I was looking for a good balance of charger, battery's and anything else needed to complete my 450se electrical needs in the hopes it will last for some time without needing to re-buy in the near future.

I will only be using lipo's and doubt if I would be charging over one at a time...now. But, knowing things may change "in the future" I may have at most 4 battery's I guess, but still using all Lipo's.

So could someone here help me with simple choices for a good balance of power, flight time, safety etc? This is a serious investment and I really want to start out correctly...and I know the users here KNOW A LOT.

(Let's try the KISS method, seems like a good place to start)

(High) CHOICE A:
(Medium) CHOICE B:
(Economy) CHOICE C:

(Sorry for the long post but I think others may benefit from this)

[Pinecone]

Chargers

A: Thunder Power 1010C with 210V balancer Charge up to 10S packs later, or up to 3 Trex 450 3S packs at one time. Expensive, $300 for the setup

B: FMA Cell Pro - balancing charger charges each cell separately, up to 4S, $65). Or Triton 2 and Equinox balancer, charges up to 5S packs and also NiMH and NiCd, about $150 for the pair, a bit more versatile than the CellPro.

C: DN Power/Common Sense RC and other. Balancing charger. Downside is that it doesn't tell you how much you put back into the pack, and not that cheap.

Batteries:

A: Flight Power EVO or ThunderPower Extreme. With stock motor you want 2000 - 2200 in 3C (3 cells in series, 11.1 volts). $75+ per pack

B: Thunder Power Prolites. Still very good packs. $65 - $70

C: DN Power, nice packs also come in a combo with the DN charger. $35 - $40 each. Also Hextronic from United Hobbies, a couple people have them, but few reports yet, but cheap at $31 per pack.

If you are new to helis, I would get some DN Power packs and an FMA Cell Pro to get started. If you can swing it, go ahead and get the TP 1010C setup.

Once you start flying harder, then spend the money for the then current top line packs. IMO why use up cycles and take the chance of damaging a high end pack when learning to hover or basic forward flight and acro, which doesn't need the punch.

[Steve CP Pro]

This is great advice and is just what is needed for "new ones" like myself.

Thanks for the reply!

[Steve CP Pro]

I received this from Spork in a PM last night...reprinted with his permission.

There's no single right answer on batteries and chargers. But this should get you going OK. Get the Triton charger, and the TP205 balancer. Then get any set of LiPo's with a capacity of 2000 mah or so, and a current rating of at least 15C, that is 3S.

The TP Pro-Light 2100 mah, 3S packs are probably the single most common choice. They tend to be higher end than many of the new lower cost batteries, but they also seem to last better and take the abuse better. Finally, they have the best support. TP will typically replace them for half price if you fry them in less than 6 months or so.

Finless likes the Flight Power packs. I assume any 3S FlightPower pack in the 2000 mah range would be a good choice as well. No matter what you do, you will destroy or use up the LiPo's sooner or later. So don't sweat the choice too much.

However, I would also get a LiPo alarm to run on the heli. Make sure not to take more than about 80% out of your packs each flight. Then charge and balance them properly. If your packs are reaching 140 deg F or more in flight, you need to modify something (gearing, blade length...)

[Pinecone]

Spork as usual has good advice.

A couple of things, there are some packs that are known to have problems, like some of the Apex packs. PEople got puffed cells in very few cycles.

I really like the Triton also, but they are expensive. And if you don't need to charge NiMH and NiCd, the CellPro is cheaper and does more (buy the A123 version and it will charge/discharge to storage voltage.

YES on a lipo alarm. Also use a timer.

First flight, set timer for 5 minutes. Check the amount put back in the pack. Divide by 5 to get mA per minute. Divide 80% of your pack capacity by the per minute use and see how many minutes you can safely run.

[avatar71]

I am a big fan of the fma cellpro. it tells you the estimated charge level of the pack when you plug it in. You can charge at an excellerated rate and it is brain-less. You could just plug your pack in an forget it (obeying lipo safety of course)
No additional balancer in needed! It charged through the balance leads. I had the DN Charger and I like the fma prod better

Downside, it charges only through the balance leads so it you have a pack w/o balance leads... not gonna work.

If you do not plan to go with something larger than 4 cell (4s) packs, the cellpro is a home run. 2s (2 cell) to 4s (4 cell) will cover you from tiny ones like the blade cx to mid-ish size screamers like a lepton.

DN power packs are great for good power and a real good deal. I own 2 2150 15c (3s) packs for my trex 450 and I cannot tell the dif from my tp2100s.

Last thing, if the "C" thing is confusing, let me "try" to help. C is a term helping to indicate the charge or discharge rate of a pack or a cell that is in reference to the capacity (or amp hours) of the cell or pack.

"Charge at 1C" is the standard max charge rate for lipo packs. This means that if you have a Flight Power 3200 mah pack, you can charge it at 1C or 3.2 amps.

If it is rated at 20C (the discharge rate) that means it's running discharge rate is 64 amp hours (ah). And burst indicates just that, how many ah can be sucked out in a quick burst.

DISCLAIMER... I'm pretty sure this is right, anyone, feel free to correct me.

[Steve CP Pro]

Simple recommendations like this are invaluable to me (and I'm sure others will benefit too)

It's very reassuring to have knowledgeable people like yourself and others to help out when things get confusing.

Thank you for taking the time to help.

[tw1st3dxj]

Wow its amazing the information that people know, just gotta ask the question. I have been confused on this for awhile now just haven't asked. Thanks for all of this everyone. Now one more question. Does anyone have a suggestion for both a DC power converter and a "field source" for use with 2 Cellpro chargers? I was looking at this converter (http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/158301.asp) or this one (http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/158303.asp) for use with a Polycharge 4 but I'm thinking it may be a little overkill for 2 cellpros.

[Steve CP Pro]

Could a battery charger be used instead of a battery??

[tw1st3dxj]

I have heard of people using car jump start kits as a field source but not sure how long they last. I know the down side to using a car battery is the constant discharge and charge cycles but how about a battery such as a Deep Cycle Optima? I personally have had 2 completely discharged and charged a couple times a month over the last 3 years in my jeep.

[spork]

We have one local field with outlets! If you don't have that I'd definitely want to go with either a good deep-cycle marine battery, or a generator. Sucking a lead-acid or gel-cell down very far, very frequently, isn't the healthiest thing for it.

[No_Gassers_Here]

I have heard of people using car jump start kits as a field source but not sure how long they last.

That's what I'm using .I got it for $39.00. I'll keep you all informed of how it works. I used it today and charged about 3 paks and it still showed 3/4 charge in the jump box. 3hrs and it fully charged.

[tw1st3dxj]

If you don't have that I'd definitely want to go with either a good deep-cycle marine battery, or a generator.

How do you think an optima blue marine deep cycle battery will hold up to usage 2-3 days a week? Specs on them can be found here. (http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/product_info/marine/technical_specs.html) Either the D31M or D34M, both are rated for deep cycle. I can get these fairly easily that is why I'm asking about them specifically. If you suggest something else what would it be?

[spork]

Sorry, you've reached the depth of my knowledge on these types of batteries. I have an electric pump for pumping up the leading edge and struts of my kitesurfing kites. It uses a standard 7.0 amp-hr gel cel (just like the ones we use in our field boxes for starters and fuel pumps). I use it 3 or 4 times/week for 6 months of the year, and I get maybe 2 seasons out of it (gradually losing capacity). I try not to drain it too far, but sometimes I do. I look at it as an expendable item. The good news is that you can replace them for about $20.00. Obviously a deep-cycle battery would be better, and last longer, but it would of course cost more.

Sorry I can't tell you more about specific deep-cycle batteries.

Edit:

Looking at the specs, I'd say those look like good batteries for this purpose. The D31M is 10 times the weight and capacity of my 7.5 AH gel-cell. But again, I'm not an expert in comparing these to other deep-cycle batteries (or even knowing what specs to look for).

[tw1st3dxj]

np thanks for being honest there spork. at least ya tried. I can get the batteries pretty cheap through a friends work so I think I will try it out and see how it goes.

[spork]

I think if you charge them according to the guidelines on the site, and don't treat them too horribly badly, they'll last you at least long enough to forget it was me that gave you any bad advice! :mrgreen:

Good luck.

[tw1st3dxj]

I will just throw a remote battery hookup in the back of my jeep to charge it so it won't be bad and I will always have it available to fly :)

[Steve CP Pro]

I have a regular Sears AC car battery charger, and was thinking that instead of hauling around the heavy marine battery at home, I could just hook up the leads of my Triton charger to the Sears car charger and charge the Align batteries that way.

Would this work?

[Pinecone]

I would not do that, those battery chargers are not well regulated. What I would do (and have done) is to hook the auto charger to the battery and the lipo charger top the battery. The battery works like a HUGE capacitor to smooth out and regulate the power supplied.

Those little car boosters have pretty small batteries in them.

Any deep cycle battery will work. Optima are supposed to be a pretty good battery. For a Trex 450 the deep cycle battery is pretty reasonable. For a Trex 600 you are getting to the point of getting 4 - 5 packs charged before it is pretty much down.

[Ligblou]

Just to add my few cents worth...

I have bought two CellPro 4S chargers (the A123 version) about two weeks back from FMA Direct (http://www.fmadirect.com/detail.htm?item=2193&section=45). One for me and the other one for my brother. We are both very impressed and pleased with this "little" charger. Using the 1.4C mode it completely charges and balances our eXtremePower 2200Mah 18C lipo packs in 45 to 50minutes, putting back 90% fuel. Each cell perfectly balanced each time. Oh, I get 7 to 8 minutes flying time on this pack (10% fuel left).

My reasoning was that I was not going to fly anything bigger than the T-Rex 450 in the near future, and thus did not need a charger which can charge up to 10 cells. Also, I needed something that was not gonna break the bank and thus CellPro 4S was a perfect choice.

The CellPro 4S is a great choice! Also have a look at the rest of the CellPro range (http://www.fmadirect.com/products.htm?cat=45&nid=4) for protection modules, etc.

[sean1]

I have been racing electric cars, as a high school advisor for the last two years.
All the teams use the red top optima and they are all but bullet proof.
There are literally hundreds of these batteries at a race.
Just do not leave them in a discharge state, recharge as soon as practical.
We run two of this at 24 volts with a 35amp load with over 150amp peaks for an hour.
Moreover, we have used the same set for the last two years! and we do abuse these batteries.
At about $125ec, they do not spill and thy look COOL.
Are cars weight about 450lbs w/driver and run 45mph for an hour.
The RED TOP Have my vote. :D