Virtuall flybar for AP applications?

[MarkWebber]

Therefore checking the integrity of the adhesive mount is a critical preflight item.


Excellent point, Mark!

Nice install. Have you concidered going to Zeal tape on those gyros? I know it made a big difference the first time I put it on my tail gyro. Might not be as noticable on an electric, though.

Is there much of a difference between using a 240, vs a 401?


Pity we're 2500 miles apart or we might be able to compare. From what I've been told, the only real difference is the ease of gain adjustment on the 401. Persons flying 240's on the tail told me they flew as well as a 401. :dontknow

The plus side of remote gain will be for 3D capable machines. Imagine being able to switch gain setting in flight to control the head parameters. :wink: Should be cool for those able to use it.

[rerazor]

That V- bar head is so simple and elegant that it almost looks stupid. :WOW :roll:

[GGoodrum]

I seem to remember somebody from Futaba once saying that the software in the 240 was better suited with analog servos and that the 401s were better optimised with fast digital servos. That's why many are using 401s with 9650s on TRex 450SEs and Mini Titans. I just wondered if it made much difference in this application. Is the demands for use on a swash more or less than on a tail? Maybe the same? It sounds like it doesn't matter much, as Mark's 240 setup seems to hold the swash fine in HH mode.

I'm still trying to get what's left of my grey matter around the whole keeping the heli in one spot stabilization problem. With the IR sensor, we get the helicopter in a stable hover, which may require tilting the swash in one direction in order to counter a steady wind. We then hit the cal function and let go of the stick. With the gyros in HH mode you would basically just move the sticks until you got the same tilt angle required to counter the wind and then let go of the stick. Isn't this functionally the same thing?

Conceivably, the real advantage an inertial-based, keeping-the-heli-in-one-spot AP-2000i solution will have is that we won't have to keep the tail in one spot like we do with the current IR system. The gyro HH "solution" also forces you to keep the tail in one spot. I guess that means the inertial sensor that gets added to the AP-2000i will have to also have a 3rd axis. I guess that it also could be possible that we wouldn't need an external tail gyro then, assuming, like the V-Bar, the tail control/HH function could be integrated into the AP-2000i as well.

Okay my head is hurting again. :arggg: Where the heck is Angelos?? We need him to weigh in here!

-- Gary

[MarkWebber]

Gary

Since 'speed kills' on cyclic, we wouldn't want to be putting the fastest system on our cyclic. Maybe once I put together a purpose built flybarless heli with optimized linkages... :roll: (grey matter alert!) Right now, my linkages aren't moving but a few millimeters in either direction and rapid servo response is causing oscillations.


With the gyros in HH mode you would basically just move the sticks until you got the same tilt angle required to counter the wind and then let go of the stick. Isn't this functionally the same thing?

Except without the calibration feature, as soon as you move a stick, the HH keeps it at that last position. I will note that the HH seemed to hold well in the wind while doing piro. Like a dope, I left my fuel at the office and only had half tank on my last flight when I was trying this out. Calibration is quick...let go of the stick :wink:
Where the heck is Angelos?? We need him to weigh in here

It seems his grey matter holds together a bit better on these posts, doesn't it :noteworthy


I don't think the tail gyro integration is a necessary evil. The AP2000i is capable of providing stabilization without concern for the tail. Whether Angelos would want to integrate that if he were to make this, only he could say, of course.

[rerazor]

Like a dope, I left my fuel at the office and only had half tank on my last flight when I was trying this out.


Fuel? Oh you must mean that "smelly messy liquid fancy color annoying sound making" stuff.

:mrgreen: :bomb:

[MarkWebber]

That V- bar head is so simple and elegant that it almost looks stupid.

I agree. I'm going to have to do something different for mine. It's better than w/flybar but not as nice as Mark's Mikado.

[GGoodrum]

Gary
I don't think the tail gyro integration is a necessary evil. The AP2000i is capable of providing stabilization without concern for the tail. Whether Angelos would want to integrate that if he were to make this, only he could say, of course.

How can the AP-2000i do this whitout concern for the tail? I mean, if you turn 90 degrees, what was the aileron axis is now the elevator axis, and vice-versa. At a minimum, it needs a 3rd axis inertial sensor in order to calculate any translations required. If you have that, doing the tail gyro HH function is just a bit more software, and it would eliminate the need for an external dedicated tail gyro. This is one thing that takes some of the sting out of the V-Bar outlay, because it eliminates the need for an "extra" 401/611/720/etc.

-- Gary

[MarkWebber]

How can the AP-2000i do this whitout concern for the tail? I mean, if you turn 90 degrees, what was the aileron axis is now the elevator axis, and vice-versa.

Properly positioned, the other 2 axis would not register any movement in a piro. Just the same as your tail gyro should not sense any movement in a clean roll or flip.

I do get the reasoning behind simplifying the heli adding the 3rd gyro. I does help clean up the install. And Angelos does seem masterful at adding that little bit of software to do what we need. :D

[j_kookboy]

Mark,

If you had a toss-up between the V-bar/two GY240's and 3 packs of A132's for that added 25 mins of flight time, which would you pick ?

Novelties aside, is the Vbar really that stable and efficient at this stage ? Or is the money better spend on more packs for more flights ?

These are the q's I'm running through at the moment. Trying to justify going with the Vbar instead of a set of extra a123 packs.

Much appreciated,
Jesse

[oscillator]

Jesse,

not sure which Mark you were addressing here. But I'll take a stab at it.

If you are after max endurance, the A123's are NOT the way to go. For the same weight you can get more Watt hours with LiPos - though the initial cost is more and there are other trade offs.

If you were trying to squeeze ever extra min of flight time, a flybarless setup (regardless of if you used the V-bar or the AP2000i) should yield a slightly longer run time for the same setup, though we don't have any hard data (yet) on how much run time you would gain.

If you don't need longer run times and can afford to land and change a pack, then by all means, spend the money on an extra pack or 3.

But there are several other reasons to consider a flybarless setup than increased run times. Esp using HH gyros the heli is much less sensitive to the wind, hovers more stable, has fewer potential vibration sources, weights less, and has fewer mechanical parts to come lose, fail, or to replace in a crash.

[MarkWebber]

I would consider the increased run time incidental. Like Mark said, the other factors are far better reason to make the switch.

Once converted, the paddles on my gasser will never be able to flip my heli on spool up/down in the wind. :D At $250/set for 810mm blades, it's the best reason I can think of.

[dreslism]

Too many Marks around here! :D

Mark S.,

I have a logo also and would consider doing it to mine also because of that sexy head you have on there.

Let's talk cost.

Total cost to do this was what ? 2 240's and the Mikado head? (Did I miss anything)

What Mikado head did you buy (do you have a link?) and what did it cost?

Now, 240/401. 240's are cheaper, but you have to set sensitivity on the ground.

If you go with 2 401's, then you need another channel to adjust them as they HAVE to have the gain plugged in right?

Mark W. You're running 401's right?

Did you "Y" the 2 gains together so you can control them together with one setting?
If not, they you need 8 channels on your Tx/Rx right?

Just trying to make sure I understand this all.

Thanks guys.

[rerazor]

L10 V-bar head = $169
http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5555

I think this is the way of the future. I would think in the next couple of yeas these will become the norm.

Scott,
Still working on bringing "sexy" back? :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

[dreslism]

L10 V-bar head = $169
http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5555

I think this is the way of the future. I would think in the next couple of yeas these will become the norm.


So with the new head and 2 240's were pushing $400.

Scott,
Still working on bringing "sexy" back? :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

Yeah that's me... doing what I can. Although with all the extra parts and wires it will be a small step towards "sexy" back. We need it all in one box that is not $1000. It will be interesting in 1 year to see what else is out there. :mrgreen:

[j_kookboy]

L-14 V-bar : $159 @ readyheli

http://www.readyheli.com/MIK4053_Upgrade_V_Bar_VBAR_Rotorhead_Logo_14_p/mik4053.htm

Any thoughts on putting this on the L10 ? :D

[GGoodrum]

Hmm... you still need an AP-2000i, or some other eCCPM mixer. so with 401s you would be looking at about $250 for an AP-2000i plus anothr $280, or so for two GY401s, or about $530. The V-Bar system is $1000, but you can eliminate the need for a dedicated tail servo, which brings it down to about $870, if you are talking about a 401, but down to $750 if you are replacing a 611. Still more, but it does have a lot more features/controls.

I'd like to see an AP-2000i variant with inertial-based hover stabilization, the digital flybar function and the equivalent function of the new ds760 gyro for the tail. All it would be is the computer widget and a single inertial sensor. Oh, as an option, I'd like to also add a baroalt sensor and an altitude hold finction. I think if Angelos can do all this for $600-$700 per system, he will sell more than he make for sometime to come. ;)

-- Gary

[dreslism]

Hmm... you still need an AP-2000i, or some other eCCPM mixer.


Duh. (To me, not you.) Looked at Mark's picture with the ap2000 sitting right there. My mind says, yeah, I got one of those, but after your post I just realized (IT'S ON MY OTHER HELI!!!!)

so with 401s you would be looking at about $250 for an AP-2000i plus anothr $280, or so for two GY401s, or about $530. The V-Bar system is $1000, but you can eliminate the need for a dedicated tail servo, which brings it down to about $870, if you are talking about a 401, but down to $750 if you are replacing a 611. Still more, but it does have a lot more features/controls.

I'd like to see an AP-2000i variant with inertial-based hover stabilization, the digital flybar function and the equivalent function of the new ds760 gyro for the tail. All it would be is the computer widget and a single inertial sensor. Oh, as an option, I'd like to also add a baroalt sensor and an altitude hold finction. I think if Angelos can do all this for $600-$700 per system, he will sell more than he make for sometime to come. ;)
-- Gary


Agreed, that would be sweet. I know myself and many others have been sitting waiting for the internal inertia sensors for quite some time now for the ap2000i, and the answer on the date is always it's in the works.

Then a release or so ago of firmware, there was talk about altitude hold with an altitude sensor.

Whoa,

that's new, many were excited about that, but alot still said give me the internal sensors.

Then (what at least appeared to me) out of the blue comes the new tail gyro from spartan. (Website says the long anticipated, bu this is the first I heard of it.)

My first thoughts were geez, what about the internal sensors( I would really like to ditch the IR sensor for many reasons).

Then seeing what you guys are doing here, thinking about it some more, maybe the new gyro is a side effect of the internal sensors, or vice versa, or both are part of the big picture you mention above.

It would be nice if Angelos could update us here on the plans. :D

Are internal stabilization sensors still on the way, or have they been put on hold?

Timeframe for these sensors?

Plans to package up a new ap2000 with all the above goodies?

Anyhow, Angelos, I mean nothing negative here, I love the products, and I think everyone of us here that have an ap2000i have sold many of them ourselves by word of mouth, and have supported many users on the forums setting them up.

Love the products, looking forward to more, I guess we're just a bunch of geeks here and really would like to know more if you can let us know.

[oscillator]

Costs look about right, for the Logo 10 you need:

V-bar head - about $160
2 Gyros - about $240 or more
AP2000i - $280

So $680 total. Then of course you need a tail gyro, so we will call it $820 or so.

If you go with the Mikado setup you need the electrics ~$1000 and the head, so $1160 total. Of course you can't add IR stabilization to the Mikado setup without an AP2000i - so the Mikado price goes to $1440.

Another way to look at it, if you already have an AP2000i and a tail gyro, the incremental cost of removing the flybar is only the head and the 2 gyros, or about $400.

[MarkWebber]

Scott

I did Y the 2 401's together. Some scale guys told me I'd need to have separate gains on each axis but this has not seemed to be the case.
I just realized (IT'S ON MY OTHER HELI!!!!)

Oops :roll:

Got 'em on both my heli's now. :wink:

What is the shaft size for that logo head. I'm still thinking I need a multi on this rappy, anyhow. Four blades sound so much better than two :D

[GGoodrum]

Yeah but Mark, your $1000 also gets you this VERY cool cigar box:

http://www.tppacks.com/photos/V-Bar-01.jpg


:D:D:D


Hee's what the stuff looks like:


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/V-Bar-02.jpg

http://www.tppacks.com/photos/V-Bar-03.jpg


The computer widget is about the same size as the AP-2000i unit and the gyro sensor is a little smaller than a single 240/401. It has all three gyro/inertial sensors

Here's the head mod kit:


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/V-Bar-04.jpg


<Scott -- It is inertial sensors, not internal sensors...>

[rerazor]

I'm pretty sure the L10 and R50 are 10mm mainshafts

[MarkWebber]

Looks like I'd better get about making up some cool boxes, huh?


It is inertial sensors, not internal sensors...>

The way I fly, an "internal" sensor wouldn't be such a bad idea. :D

[dreslism]

<Scott -- It is inertial sensors, not internal sensors...>

Thanks, I said it right or semi right depending how you think about it here:

"internal inertia sensors "

I guess I was just also trying to put a simple way to describe them for those who are not aware of them yet, and how they differ from the current IR sensor.

The current IR sensor needs external world interface (i.e. it's eyes have to see the horizon, so if needs to be out on the boom.)

The new sensors could be stuffed in a plastic box and stuffed in your heli and would not require "external" world interface.

I know I started slipping in and out of using it in the last post, but my excuse is that I am currently at my real job and my maxnumtasks is currently set at about 10-12, so my helifreak in put during the day does not get a big piece of the timeslice. :D

Anyhow, I'll try and use the right name from now on.

Oh yeah Gary, nice box. :D.

[rerazor]

I like the wooden box.

Before you know it you will be able to buy a V-bar made by Walkera. :roll: :badair:

[GGoodrum]

Hey, I don't know if Walkera makes it but I just put a micro-sized MFS head, just like the one on your Mini-Joker, on my e325 Mini-Titan. I think it was designed for a Walkera 60. Anyway, it is VERY cool. :glasses2: Almost as cool as my new V-Bar box... :D:D


They way I fly, I need an internal sensor as well! Actually both wouldn't hurt... :)

I like your internal/external explanation, though. It makes perfect sense. <nice recovery... :D:D>

-- Gary