Virtuall flybar for AP applications?

[rerazor]

Lets see this Micro walkera MFS head. Yea, the Century 3d Pro tried that concept and it was a :arggg: :arggg: :arggg:

[GGoodrum]

A little off-topic, but here it is...

http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Micro%20MFS-01.jpg

[rerazor]

Sorry for off topic but WOW!!

Back to the regular scheduled programming.

[oscillator]

Yeah but Mark, your $1000 also gets you this VERY cool cigar box:


Gee Gary, I'm really feeling ripped off now. My AP2000i didn't even come with a cardboard box. :lol:

[MarkWebber]

Cool...now just throw away all that flybar junk and you'll be set :wink:

[j_kookboy]

After seeing a few Vbar's in action and all of this talk, I'm jumping on board.

I'll be a few weeks behind both Marks. Hopefully by then, some good advice and setup tips will be floating around. :D

[davethomaspilot]

Here's the head mod kit:


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/V-Bar-04.jpg


<Scott -- It is inertial sensors, not internal sensors...>[/quote]

I'm no hotshot 3D flyer, just an engineer/geek type that loves gadgets. The ability to get more duration at lower head speeds without sacrificing cyclic response or stability is cool. So, I'm ready to jump on board too. Thought I'd at least get the Logo 10 flybarless head ordered.

Didn't think $165 sounded too unreasonable, until I realized you're not getting a head, but just the upgrade parts (see Gary's picture).

Is it just me, or does $165 for that bag of parts seem awfully steep?

Dave Thomas

[rerazor]

Isn't the head part of the upgrade parts?

Yes it seems expensive.

[oscillator]

Mikado parts aren't cheap...

I've seen several scale guys remove flybars from heads and just make longer linkages to go from the blade grips to the swash. May not look as clean as the Logo 10 flybarless head, but it does get rid of the flybar, seesaw, washout block, mixing arms, and all those extra linkages.

[GGoodrum]

You can use the stock head, but you need a couple of things. First you need some spacers so that the balls on the grips line up with the center of the shaft. You also need a "driver" that locks the swashplate in one position, relative to the head/grips. You can buy these swashplate drivers (Graupner makes ones, as does a couple others...), or you use the existing washout and red-loctite it to the shaft.

The Mikado replacement head is much cleaner. It has guides that hold the links in place, which in turn keeps the swash from rotating.

-- Gary

[davethomaspilot]

Thanks Gary. Dorked my Logo 10 today, bent the flybar, main shaft, and busted a blade grip, so I guess I'll take the plunge and try flybarless. Did some surfing on swashplate drivers and saw this picture:

http://www.dacsa.net/heli/swashplatedriver/cimg0929.jpg

which illustrated "using the exsiting washout and red-loctite it to the shaft", except looks like JB Weld was used on the plastic washout.

So, I guess the idea is to drag the top half of the swashplate with the main shaft? Never thought about it before, but I guess it's just the linkages from the head to the washout assembly that spins the washout, and in turn, the linkages between the washout and top half of the swash which spin the swash.

I guess I could try that with my aluminum washout assembly (red locticte it), but where to get the spacers? I went looking for the individual parts in the Mikado M4052 Logo 10 flybarless upgrade kit, but couldn't find any.

You think those other things in the upgrade kit are less critical? Looks like o-rings, and I guess a really simple head that doesn't have to hole seesaw bearings, flybar control bridge, etc. I guess the stock head might look a little "Dorky" with the empty "flybar holder" and loose some of the bling you get with the simplicity of the flybarless head.

So, I tell myself, quit being cheap, you're on the "bleeding edge", so expect to pay for it. But then, I started worrying about what happens when I dork one of the parts in the M4052 bag? Will I have to plop down another $160 to get all the parts, since they don't seem to be available separately? The bleeding that keeps on bleeding? Admittedly, they don't seem to be the usual "crash victims", but I still wish they were avaialble separately.

Thanks,

Dave Thomas

[GGoodrum]

The head parts in the bag are unlikely to need replacement. It uses the stock L10 grips, for instance, and has aluminum spacers to line up the balls with the main shaft. These aren't going to break. Nor is the metal head. The guides are plastic, but quite thick. You'll dork the ball links before these will do anything. The rest of the bits and pieces are standard Logo parts, and readily available. BTW, even the unique parts do have separate part numbers so conceivably you could get spares in the very unlikely event that you needed them.

-- Gary

[MarkWebber]

It's easy enough to make the switch w/o buying a whole new head. In my gallery is the driver I'm using right now. If your not sure you'll want to stay with the conversion (I wasn't) then it's a less expensive route to experiment. You'll likely need new links (mine weren't long enough). It works fine even if they're not parallel with the mast. Swash driver and strip the rest of the flybar parts off. Gyro's, of course. :D

Since I'm going to keep it in this configuration, I'm going to go ahead soon and add on the right parts. Asthetics, really.

[davethomaspilot]

Thanks for the tips.

Took the plunge and ordered the parts.

Dave Thomas

[oscillator]

Did some more test flights today. I've noticed in HH mode that the heli wants to tip badly in liftoff if I apply collective to slowly. Flybars will do this as well, but not nearly as bad. Just feed the collective a little faster and all is well.

Did a cal ON THE GROUND with the AP2000i, set the gain at about 60%, and climbed out to about 100-150 ft, turned on the AP2000i and she just sat there, even with the wind gusting :glasses2: . Can't wait to get the camera on! The A640 arrived today - still waiting on the mount.

[catfight]

Anyone have a currently working system with Trex 600? I already have A2000i. Need to know simplest system for the head setup.

Thanks

[MarkWebber]

What radio have you got, Rusty?

[catfight]

Mark,

6102/DX6 frankenradio. Why would the radio matter?

[MarkWebber]

Why would the radio matter?

Then anyone with that radio can kick in the setup info for it too.

And when you say "head set up", are you refering to the flybar vs flybarless?

[catfight]

Mark,

I just want to try flybarless - been fascinated with it for years. I don't want to purchase Mikado head or anything fancy - just remove parts, etc..

Thanks

[MarkWebber]

Gottcha

I was just checking out the 600 assembly manual and it looks as if you can get away with the same thing I did on my raptor. Just pulled off all the flybar related hardware and used some setscrews to secure the washout slider to the mast as a swashplate driver. Some pics in my gallery. I did have to get longer links from the grips to the swashplate. With the underslung head on the 600, it should look nicer than the raptor's head, too. :D

[catfight]

Thanks Mark!

What gyros are you using on the A200i

[MarkWebber]

I went with the 401's because I wasn't convinced I would stay with the conversion and I could use them somewhere else or they'd be easier to resell. Mark S. got 240's because he's smarter than I. :wink: I will probably ditch the 401's when Angelos gets some ds760 ready :D

Which ever you prefer, really. Once you get the gain right, there's no real reason to change it. Once an optimized gyro is available, changing gains depending on flight characteristics might be desirable. That's beyond my current capabilities. :roll:

[catfight]

Did you flip the blade grips? How did you deal with the gain setting on the 401 (don't they have to be set to rate mode?).

[MarkWebber]

Without even thinking about it, I did flip the grips. I'm just used to the linkage leading on my Intrepid and matched it. I know there's theories as to which is better but I'm sure it doesn't make any real difference to my flying. :D

I set mine to a switch to flip between rate and HH. Keep in mind that I converted this for testing of other theories as well.

Regarding flying in HH w/IR on. If you're just hovering, it works quite well. Start doing some maneuvering around in ff and you're not going to like it. I've tried now in various gain settings and flight characteristics. The gyros just do too good a job of preventing the IR from stabilizing. If you're using a switch to control gain, I'd either not use HH or make sure to set the gain rate decrease higher in the AP2000i to soften the stabilization turning off. Turning off the stabilization while in HH in fff can yield some uncomfortable results. Might not be fun nearer the ground.

I might have a way around the HH/IR conflict but I'll need to test it out first. I'm not sure it'll improve the stabilization enough to make a difference.