Virtuall flybar for AP applications?

[GGoodrum]

Mark, does it make any difference if you put the gyros in front of the AP-2000i?

-- Gary

[MarkWebber]

Gary

The gyros must go in front of the AP2000i. That is what prevents the IR from performing as we normally expect. So far as the AP2000i is concerned, the gyros control inputs are just the control signals from the pilot. As Mark S. noted, in a hover they seem to compliment each other. It's only in ff to fff that I have encountered the less than desirable results.

[catfight]

Has anyone tried the A2000i as flybarless controller without using gyros? It seems the use of flybarless is separate from stability in the user manual - just curious if possible...

[MarkWebber]

The gyros are installed as a replacement for the mechanical gyro (flybar). It is possible to fly without a flybar but it is not a good feeling. I've adjusted the values in RealFlight to simulate this. From what some pilots that have flown this way tell me, I must have gotten it right on. Personally, I wouldn't want to do it with my heli. It would be real easy to crash it this way. Especially in fff. Cyclic gets really twitchy. They like to dive for the ground.

If you want to try it in the sim, change the flybar parameters to make the paddles very small and reduce the weight to near zero.

[GGoodrum]

Gary

The gyros must go in front of the AP2000i. That is what prevents the IR from performing as we normally expect. So far as the AP2000i is concerned, the gyros control inputs are just the control signals from the pilot. As Mark S. noted, in a hover they seem to compliment each other. It's only in ff to fff that I have encountered the less than desirable results.

I'm not sure I understand your statement. Are you saying that putting the gyros in front of the AP-2000i is "preventing the IR from performing as we normally expect", or not putting the gyros first causes the problem?

I'm still a bit confused about why it wouldn't be just as effective to have the AP-2000i in front of the gyros, but I'll take your word for it. :)

I haven't put the V-Bar on yet because I just got the latest PanCam mount from Andrey, and I want to get that setup first, before I start messing with the controls, etc. I'm trying to do two setups, one for a portrait-oriented A640 with a wide-angle lens/adapter, and a second for my HDC-SD1. My original PanCam prototype had shorter legs, and not quite enough clearance under the camera frame. Anyway, I have finish up testing this, and then I'll put on the new head and install the V-Bar. From the results here, I guess it needs to go in front of the AP-2000i.

-- Gary

[MarkWebber]

Gary

On my Raptor, I could put the gyros after the AP2000i because it is mechanically mixed. On a CCPM machine, the AP2000i is performing the mixing so it needs the gyro inputs to preceed the AP2000i. With the gyros preceeding the AP2000i, when in HH, the gyros provide signals to the AP2000i to hold the last tx commanded attitude. Because the AP2000i can not discern the gyros commands from the tx commands the IR stabilization is overridden. Just as when you are flying with stabilization active. Even at high gain settings the tx commands are always followed.

With the gyros in rate mode, the IR stabilization is able to function just as if it were a flybar equipped heli.

If I'm correct and the Mikado system handles the mixing, I would place the AP2000i in front of the Mikado. Assuming you set your tx to S-1 for the Mikado to work, you would also want to set the AP2000i to S-1 swashplate type. I'd think this would allow the AP2000i to pass through w/IR stabilzation. I wish I knew the Mikado system better to be more certain of this.

The best advise...use care! The possibility for surprises is certainly possible with that combo.

[GGoodrum]

Yep, the V-Bar also has a built-in eCCPM mixer, so I can put the AP-2000i in front. You can also change just about every aspect of the way the helicopter will fly, including something pretty close to a "heading hold" sort of stabilization.

All this is well and good, but it still won't do much for gusty type wind conditions. For that, and to have a true hands-off sort of capability, we really need some sort of sensor that will tell the AP-2000i when it is moving relative to the ground.

-- Gary

[j_kookboy]

Mark,

Too early to test, or have you tried any auto's with the V-bar ?

Wondering if auto's would be better or worse without the flybar/linkages.

[kgfly]

we really need some sort of sensor that will tell the AP-2000i when it is moving relative to the ground.
A clever person could use the sensor from an optical mouse. This takes around 1500 images per second and calculates the X/Y translation vectors between images. I would think a small, low power translation sensor could be built up around this technology. I would think some new optics would be required as the stock lens is designed to focus just a few millimeters away on the surface upon which the mouse is resting.

[MarkWebber]

I have tried auto's with it. In rate mode, it's just like with the flybar. In HH, you have to keep in mind that the gyros will hold the last commanded attutude. You have to be on top of what is happening.

This was demonstrated clearly to me when I let another person try out my R50 on Friday. He's a much better pilot than I and I wanted to see just what it was capable of in skilled hands. Well, I guess I should have started him out in rate mode to get used to it. Shortly into the flight the engine quit for some reason. Unfortunately, the handling of the HH was still unnerving him a bit and we had a boom strike on landing. I guess that is where the remote gain can come in handy. I should have had him switch to rate on the way in. I'm sure it would have come out fine.

[GGoodrum]

we really need some sort of sensor that will tell the AP-2000i when it is moving relative to the ground.
A clever person could use the sensor from an optical mouse. This takes around 1500 images per second and calculates the X/Y translation vectors between images. I would think a small, low power translation sensor could be built up around this technology. I would think some new optics would be required as the stock lens is designed to focus just a few millimeters away on the surface upon which the mouse is resting.

This is exactly what the HeliCommand system does but the problem is that it only works up to about 10 feet.

[j_kookboy]

Regarding flying in HH w/IR on. If you're just hovering, it works quite well. Start doing some maneuvering around in ff and you're not going to like it.

Turning off the stabilization while in HH in fff can yield some uncomfortable results. Might not be fun nearer the ground.

I might have a way around the HH/IR conflict but I'll need to test it out first. I'm not sure it'll improve the stabilization enough to make a difference.

What about just setting up for a hover with HH on. Once you're in place, turn on IR and start shooting.

If you need to move around then use HH on/off as needed with the IR constantly on.

Is that a practical approach ?

Which would be a better alternative .. turn on/off HH as required ... or turn on/off IR as required ?

[MarkWebber]

Which would be a better alternative .. turn on/off HH as required ... or turn on/off IR as required ?

Either would work. Depending on how you like the feel of flight with HH. Maybe because I've not been flying for years, the HH feel doesn't bother me. It is something to get used to. You could always fly in rate/IR and just go into HH when you're ready to shoot, as you noted.

[MarkWebber]

Gloomy day but I finally got a few pics of my R50 in flight.

[j_kookboy]

Nice shots mark.
:D

[Tonystott]

Mark, someone far cheekier than me might ask if you were trying to hover at the time! :D:D:D

[MarkWebber]

Um...what ever could you mean :roll: If you wanna see hovering, check my gallery. :)

[ssozonoff]

Hi Guys,

OK I should have my AP2000i on the way in the mail. I plan to experiment with flybarless as well as stabilisation using the IR sensor. This will be on a TRex 600 and maybe later on a Logo 24 or Maxi Joker 2.

I have ordered the LogicTech 2100T gyros because they are small, light and a little cheaper than 401's.

Does anyone have any experience with this Gyro and a flybarless setup using the AP2000i?

Thanks,
Serge

[MarkWebber]

Serge

That I am aware of, Mark S. and I are the only ones using the AP2000i for flybarless stabilization. We are both using Futaba. Mark S. with 240's.

[ssozonoff]

Mark,

Thanks for this info, reading around the forums I was convinced more people were doing Flybarless with the AP2000i?

People using other solutions I guess?

Thanks,
Serge

[GGoodrum]

I'm doing flybarless with an AP-2000i and a Mikado V-Bar system. It hasn't flown yet, as I'm in the midst of re-doing the power system a bit, but it will soon.

Anyway, I need to test the new power setup in my Logo 10 Carbon (10s-3300 for AP/AV, and 12s-2200 for 3D...) this week and then I'm installing the V-Bar.

-- Gary

[MarkWebber]

Serge

There are other guys but they're doing it for scale flight w/multi heads. Not with the IR stabilization feature in use. The AP2000i is the only widely used stabilizer to support flybarless flight.

[ssozonoff]

Hi Mark,

Thanks, are you currently using both features. (stabilizer + flybarless)

I also so you were following the interesting discussion with Colin Mill on RunRyder regarding the Cyclock.

Thanks,
Serge

[oscillator]

Hi Serge,

I am using the AP2000i for both flybarless and IR stabilization.

As Mark Webber pointed out, I am using the GY240 gyros and he is using GY401s, both seem to work fine. Nothing magic about these gyros that I'm aware of and any good quality gyro should work. You will need the ability to adjust gain, reverse sense, and switch between HH and rate mode - either on the gyro or remotely.

In rate mode the heli will fly similar to a flybar model - but less susceptible to wind and it won't pitch up in FFF. In HH mode the heli is going to feel different - kinda like IR stabilization, except it just stays in the orientation you leave it. Point the nose straight down and it will stay like that - until it hits the ground!

I started with rate mode, flew HH for a while, and recently went back to rate mode. Not sure which way Mark Webber is flying his these days. Let us know how you like it. Personally, I can't see using flybars any more.

[ssozonoff]

Hi Oscillator,

Thanks, yeah I was reading:
http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t303432p18/

Lots of good info there. It seems that the pitching up on FFF in HH mode can be resolved with more cyclic travel like +-10.

I guess a lot of this is still going to be trial and error. Its interesting to see what Colin has done with the CSM 720 gyro to make it more flybarless friendly.

Serge